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>Edit: zoom out on the island.. and think about this: somewhere under the green down there there are living people like me and you that do not know what interne

>Edit: zoom out on the island.. and think about this: somewhere under the green down there there are living people like me and you that do not know what internet is... or cell phones.. or ipads.. cable TV... anything.. Or books, for that matter. Such things probably aren't as important if everybody you will ever have the chance to meet in your life numbers 400 people.

nitrogen 13y ago
Isn't it just as unethical to withhold modern learning from these tribes as it would be to infect them with our modern diseases?
- danparsonson 13y ago
  If they wanted it, certainly, but they attack any non-islanders who come near so it seems reasonable to assume they're not interested. Besides, what do they need to know that they don't already after living on the same island for 65,000 years? I'm assuming you're thinking about modern medicine but I expect they have their own ways of dealing with illness, and increasing their life expectancy might actually make things worse - the island can presumably only support a limited number of people at any one time.
  - nitrogen 13y ago
    I'm thinking more of math and science. I suppose if the island's leaders are aware of the outside world and all it can and can't do, then I'd be less concerned about the "oppressed" minds of the island's inhabitants. I feel similarly about ultra-sheltered children in cultish societies.
    - danparsonson 13y ago
      I would say those are two different examples though - children in cultish societies are removed from society at large while the cult remains embedded in and aware of it; the islanders on the other hand have deliberately chosen isolation rather than having isolation forced upon them by any external agent. I would say it's really up to them to head into the outside world rather than for us to do anything, if they want to see what's out here. And clearly they don't. The only hint of 'oppression' I see here is the idea of pushing our way of thinking onto a group of people who aren't interested and, to my mind, would derive questionable benefit from it. They must surely have sufficient 'science' to have survived there for this long and unless they intend to venture away from their island, what useful things could we teach them? I can't picture them building a particle accelerator or sitting around all day puzzling over integrals.
      - eshvk 13y ago
        > the islanders on the other hand have deliberately chosen isolation rather than having isolation forced upon them by any external agent. There is an implicit assumption that they are a democratic society where a decision was taken with the consent of everyone. You have no way of knowing that. For all you know, they could very well be a cult with some old fogey launching attack troops at the evil invaders whilst the young struggle mightily against the oppressive regime. > I can't picture them building a particle accelerator or sitting around all day puzzling over integrals. That is rather patronizing. You have no way of knowing if they are interested in that. No one knows if they like blueberry pie unless they actually try blueberry pie.
        danparsonson 13y ago
        > There is an implicit assumption that they are a democratic society where a decision was taken with the consent of everyone. You have no way of knowing that. For all you know, they could very well be a cult with some old fogey launching attack troops at the evil invaders whilst the young struggle mightily against the oppressive regime. Or they could be communists. Or anarchists. Or whatever. We have only slight evidence to make any sort of judgement, that evidence being that every time a non-islander has gone near them, the visitor has been repelled or avoided. If that says anything to you besides 'go away' then you're projecting your own opinions onto them. > That is rather patronizing. You have no way of knowing if they are interested in that. No one knows if they like blueberry pie unless they actually try blueberry pie. I'm sorry that you chose to interpret it that way; that's not what I intended. The point I was trying to make was that I couldn't imagine these people engaging in any activities unrelated to their current way of life. The reason I make this statement is that they've had thousands and thousands of years to do so and yet apparently haven't. And yes, by your earlier argument, maybe they have a secret underground facility or perhaps they're the prisoners of some other advanced agent but I'm inclined to prefer the simplest explanation which is that they are a basic tribal society with no interest in the world outside their borders. The evidence, scant though it is, suggests nothing more than that without speculation on our part. It's not patronising to suggest that they don't think like others of us do. Recall that the original post I replied to posed the question of whether or not it was unethical to withhold modern learning from them, and my point (which still stands) is that invading the home land of a group of people who are all shouting "we don't want blueberry pie" to give them blueberry pie because we think it's delicious but dammit, they haven't tasted it yet so how do they know? would be unethical, not the other way around. If they want to meet us, and partake in the exciting wonders of the modern age - the rest of humanity is a boat ride away. All they need to do is develop oars. Or at least stop shooing away visitors.

nitrogen 13y ago

Isn't it just as unethical to withhold modern learning from these tribes as it would be to infect them with our modern diseases?

danparsonson 13y ago
If they wanted it, certainly, but they attack any non-islanders who come near so it seems reasonable to assume they're not interested. Besides, what do they need to know that they don't already after living on the same island for 65,000 years? I'm assuming you're thinking about modern medicine but I expect they have their own ways of dealing with illness, and increasing their life expectancy might actually make things worse - the island can presumably only support a limited number of people at any one time.
- nitrogen 13y ago
  I'm thinking more of math and science. I suppose if the island's leaders are aware of the outside world and all it can and can't do, then I'd be less concerned about the "oppressed" minds of the island's inhabitants. I feel similarly about ultra-sheltered children in cultish societies.
  - danparsonson 13y ago
    I would say those are two different examples though - children in cultish societies are removed from society at large while the cult remains embedded in and aware of it; the islanders on the other hand have deliberately chosen isolation rather than having isolation forced upon them by any external agent. I would say it's really up to them to head into the outside world rather than for us to do anything, if they want to see what's out here. And clearly they don't. The only hint of 'oppression' I see here is the idea of pushing our way of thinking onto a group of people who aren't interested and, to my mind, would derive questionable benefit from it. They must surely have sufficient 'science' to have survived there for this long and unless they intend to venture away from their island, what useful things could we teach them? I can't picture them building a particle accelerator or sitting around all day puzzling over integrals.
    - eshvk 13y ago
      > the islanders on the other hand have deliberately chosen isolation rather than having isolation forced upon them by any external agent. There is an implicit assumption that they are a democratic society where a decision was taken with the consent of everyone. You have no way of knowing that. For all you know, they could very well be a cult with some old fogey launching attack troops at the evil invaders whilst the young struggle mightily against the oppressive regime. > I can't picture them building a particle accelerator or sitting around all day puzzling over integrals. That is rather patronizing. You have no way of knowing if they are interested in that. No one knows if they like blueberry pie unless they actually try blueberry pie.
      - danparsonson 13y ago
        > There is an implicit assumption that they are a democratic society where a decision was taken with the consent of everyone. You have no way of knowing that. For all you know, they could very well be a cult with some old fogey launching attack troops at the evil invaders whilst the young struggle mightily against the oppressive regime. Or they could be communists. Or anarchists. Or whatever. We have only slight evidence to make any sort of judgement, that evidence being that every time a non-islander has gone near them, the visitor has been repelled or avoided. If that says anything to you besides 'go away' then you're projecting your own opinions onto them. > That is rather patronizing. You have no way of knowing if they are interested in that. No one knows if they like blueberry pie unless they actually try blueberry pie. I'm sorry that you chose to interpret it that way; that's not what I intended. The point I was trying to make was that I couldn't imagine these people engaging in any activities unrelated to their current way of life. The reason I make this statement is that they've had thousands and thousands of years to do so and yet apparently haven't. And yes, by your earlier argument, maybe they have a secret underground facility or perhaps they're the prisoners of some other advanced agent but I'm inclined to prefer the simplest explanation which is that they are a basic tribal society with no interest in the world outside their borders. The evidence, scant though it is, suggests nothing more than that without speculation on our part. It's not patronising to suggest that they don't think like others of us do. Recall that the original post I replied to posed the question of whether or not it was unethical to withhold modern learning from them, and my point (which still stands) is that invading the home land of a group of people who are all shouting "we don't want blueberry pie" to give them blueberry pie because we think it's delicious but dammit, they haven't tasted it yet so how do they know? would be unethical, not the other way around. If they want to meet us, and partake in the exciting wonders of the modern age - the rest of humanity is a boat ride away. All they need to do is develop oars. Or at least stop shooing away visitors.