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I apologize in advance for sounding like an elitist prick, but in my mind, community-driven sites like StackOverflow, Reddit, Wikipedia, are prone to the noise

I apologize in advance for sounding like an elitist prick, but in my mind, community-driven sites like StackOverflow, Reddit, Wikipedia, are prone to the noise of do-nothing armchair experts (especially in this economy with the unemployment rate) who have nothing better to do than stir philosophical debates over nothing. As a person with a job who actually needs answers rather than reading through pages upon pages of discourse that goes absolutely nowhere, I appreciate StackOverflow's approach to moderation. StackOverflow is a place for specific questions and specific answers, not subjective nonsense questions like "how secure are sessions in PHP?" that, on this "Not Constructive" website, I imagine will be flooded with answers ranging from "PHP SUXXX LOL GO PYTHON" to "In my opinion, sessions are inherently broken blah blah blah". While the moderators may be able to mitigate these issues a little bit, the problem isn't so much with the answers as the question itself, which has no "correct" answer. So, while I can see why people with a lot of free time might want to go to NotConstructive as a diversion, I foresee this site as little more than an informational black hole of back-and-forth BS.

eitland 13y ago
I often find very much useful information in closed questions on stackoverflow. What annoys me is karma-farming questions.
mkr-hn 13y ago
I imagine something like the Ask* subreddits (with smart, but firm moderation) for programming would be good: http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience Moderation is strictest at the root, and you can collapse all the trees with a link near the comment form. However, the discussion is the best part. It's where smart people share their knowledge, and other smart people add on to what was said or offer different takes. But you can stick to the root for the Stack Overflow style straight answers.
nostraspamus 13y ago
Before assuming it's just going to be things like "PHP SUXXX LOL GO PYTHON" check out some of the questions that have been closed. Here's one I came across this morning on open source face recognition libraries: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/953714/face-recognition-library http://stackoverflow.com/questions/953714/face-recognition-l... The original question was asked in June of 2009. It was marked as "protected" in June of 2010. Then it was closed as off topic in April 2013. While it may be true that the question itself is not framed particularly well, the answers are really useful, including one from November, 2011 that was posted more than two years after the original question. If the original question was considered off topic in 2013, then it was presumably also off topic in 2009 when it was originally asked. If it had been marked that way at that time, some very useful answers would never have appeared.
- belorn 13y ago
  There is a trade off between having a site like SO, and a forum (and all the grey areas between). One is time sensitivity. What technology libraries 4 years ago is still the top-of-the-line library today? Maybe face recognition libraries ages better than say a web frame work or data base access library, but its a very fuzzy line which requires a crystal ball to get right. Such questions is better places on sites like HN (ask HN). The quality of the answer is the other big trade-off. Would "I'm looking for a free web framework in Python, Java, C++, or C" create the same quality answers as "I'm looking for a free face recognition library in Python, Java, C++, or C"? My guess is it would not. This mean that two similar looking questions will get very different quality in answer. One could suggest that OS invented something like wikipedia's ignore all rules policy, and let moderators decide to allow the question about Face recognition Library but not one about web frameworks. That could make the system more useful, but also create more issues.
  - SkyMarshal 13y ago
    Time sensitivity is becoming an issue for SO, but I would think that's a reason to leave time sensitive questions open rather closed - so they can be continually updated.
  - nknighthb 13y ago
    Don't mistake seeming popularity for "top-of-the-line". More often than not, an old, mature library is a much better choice than the latest fad.
- harshadura 13y ago
  true story
- mhurron 13y ago
  That is your example of a good question on StackOverflow that was closed? That question exemplifies why SO needs moderators. The question is "I want this GIVE IT TO ME. I refuse to do any research on the subject." It should have been closed in 2009, but SO hadn't been inundated with horrible questions like that yet. The current moderation, while having gone a little too far I agree, came into being because of questions like that. You're conflating 'Is this useful?' with 'Does this belong here?' I suppose someone else doing your work is always useful to you, but it doesn't belong on SO. There are questions that get closed where people have done their work and have asked in a good way. Current SO moderation has gone too far in cases. However, this is not one of those cases.
mgav 13y ago
rmrfrmrf, You may have written the greatest comment intro of all time: "I apologize in advance for sounding like an elitist prick..."
neya 13y ago
My frustration isn't fueled by sitting by an armchair and imagining about a philosophical problem that doesn't exist yet. I am talking about a REAL issue of Stackoverflow. While my php sessions example was average indeed, I would point you out some specific hurdles faced myself while using the site. For example, while securing cookies for authentication (language independent, but try JAVA for this example), you could use two routes - Either Encrypt then HMAC it or, use something that combines this both by default (like AES-GCM). Now, if you search on this particular subject on SO, you would find genuine questions messed up and half of them migrated to crypto.stackexchange.com and the rest to security.stackexchange.com. And this is the crux of my parent comment. Sorry if I appeared to be sitting on an armchair thinking about what debates I could stir while in reality I'm just like any other developer out there trying to find something useful from the site, hoping to make it better. And yes, your apology for being an elitist prick is accepted.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- mistermann 13y ago
  This is a real problem with the stackexhange platform, which is fragmenting communities. While there is a genuine reason to do it, I think the decision was primarily based on "business". My opinion, I could be wrong.
Quarrelsome 13y ago
My major disappointment with SO is how we lost the desire to be helpful and ended up with the desire to be "correct". There are many questions that I would find helpful that get instantly closed because they are "not constructive". I'd like to hear my peers opinions on the respective merits of the latest javascript frameworks but that's "not constructive" so it gets shut down. I like to help people so I occasionally decipher weird English and try to work out what they need.... too often my submission of my reply is then blocked because the question has been closed. I dislike their rules about posting to jsfiddle (you must post enough code in SO for the question to stand alone). I dislike the cliquey and "current" aspect of meta. if you're late to the party then you've missed the discussion and we've already decided.
- rmrfrmrf 13y ago
  > we lost the desire to be helpful and ended up with the desire to be "correct". But that's the whole point of StackOverflow. Right on the about page is their mission statement: Ask questions, get answers, no distractions This site is all about getting answers. It's not a discussion forum. There's no chit-chat. And while yes, it may be interesting for you to know what the "latest and greatest" of the Javascript frameworks is, that's really not the point of the site. Why? Because the answer is inherently subjective. It's open to interpretation and flame wars. In a year, it will also be obsolete. Compare that to a trivial question, like: How do you create a while loop in C++03? Which is incredibly basic, yet will always have 1 correct answer that will then be added to SO's vast knowledge base. There's also the great side effect of StackOverflow then becoming a place for real-world problems for actual practicing programmers rather than a debate forum. The "best Javascript framework" might sound like a great topic for you, but it's also indicative that you haven't actually started any work on a project, compared to, say a person trying to figure out how to do two-way binding in Knockout.js. I'd much rather have a site full of real-world issues that are getting solved than a site dedicated to theory-based bickering.
  - Quarrelsome 13y ago
    So what about the questions pertaining to "obsolete" frameworks, should we scrap those too? As exciting as this judgement of what is good information and bad information is its somewhat ironic that this categorisation is....... subjective. We have merely replaced flame wars with these debates. I don't think the time sink of productivity that you're evidently susceptible to (look at us both here!) is something that avoidable through censorship but a struggle that everyone must learn to deal with. "How to create a while loop in C++03" is as you stated a terrible question become obviously this person hasn't even started on a project. Why don't they read a book? Is this their homework? ;) Whereas when I found the closed question on javascript frameworks I was looking to make some major modifications to an existing web site. Problem is that its not as user-friendly as I'd like and the Javascript is becoming a mess so I think it would be a good call to go with backbone or knockout but I want a few sample opinions as part of my _research_. But according to a response you gave me elsewhere, talking to peers that are probably more experienced in a given part of the field doesn't count as research. D:. According to the parent of this response my work related questions aren't even "real-world". My issue with SO is they made a tool for developers who used it in many different ways. Then over the course of the next year and a half they started locking down on how _they_ wanted it used, (and by "they" I mean the most aggressive culture that prevailed amongst the owners/mods) I just find this a disappointment and a missed opportunity. I had contributed over 10k's worth of rep there but after a while I just stopped going. It stopped being fun, it was no longer a community, we were no longer trying to help others as our primary goal. It made me sad.
coldtea 13y ago
>I apologize in advance for sounding like an elitist prick, but in my mind, community-driven sites like StackOverflow, Reddit, Wikipedia, are prone to the noise of do-nothing armchair experts (especially in this economy with the unemployment rate) who have nothing better to do than stir philosophical debates over nothing. One man's "philosophical debate over nothing" is another man's passion. And one man's "productivity" is another man's who gives a fuck.

eitland 13y ago

I often find very much useful information in closed questions on stackoverflow. What annoys me is karma-farming questions.

mkr-hn 13y ago

I imagine something like the Ask* subreddits (with smart, but firm moderation) for programming would be good: http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience Moderation is strictest at the root, and you can collapse all the trees with a link near the comment form. However, the discussion is the best part. It's where smart people share their knowledge, and other smart people add on to what was said or offer different takes. But you can stick to the root for the Stack Overflow style straight answers.

nostraspamus 13y ago

Before assuming it's just going to be things like "PHP SUXXX LOL GO PYTHON" check out some of the questions that have been closed. Here's one I came across this morning on open source face recognition libraries: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/953714/face-recognition-library http://stackoverflow.com/questions/953714/face-recognition-l... The original question was asked in June of 2009. It was marked as "protected" in June of 2010. Then it was closed as off topic in April 2013. While it may be true that the question itself is not framed particularly well, the answers are really useful, including one from November, 2011 that was posted more than two years after the original question. If the original question was considered off topic in 2013, then it was presumably also off topic in 2009 when it was originally asked. If it had been marked that way at that time, some very useful answers would never have appeared.

belorn 13y ago
There is a trade off between having a site like SO, and a forum (and all the grey areas between). One is time sensitivity. What technology libraries 4 years ago is still the top-of-the-line library today? Maybe face recognition libraries ages better than say a web frame work or data base access library, but its a very fuzzy line which requires a crystal ball to get right. Such questions is better places on sites like HN (ask HN). The quality of the answer is the other big trade-off. Would "I'm looking for a free web framework in Python, Java, C++, or C" create the same quality answers as "I'm looking for a free face recognition library in Python, Java, C++, or C"? My guess is it would not. This mean that two similar looking questions will get very different quality in answer. One could suggest that OS invented something like wikipedia's ignore all rules policy, and let moderators decide to allow the question about Face recognition Library but not one about web frameworks. That could make the system more useful, but also create more issues.
- SkyMarshal 13y ago
  Time sensitivity is becoming an issue for SO, but I would think that's a reason to leave time sensitive questions open rather closed - so they can be continually updated.
- nknighthb 13y ago
  Don't mistake seeming popularity for "top-of-the-line". More often than not, an old, mature library is a much better choice than the latest fad.
harshadura 13y ago
true story
mhurron 13y ago
That is your example of a good question on StackOverflow that was closed? That question exemplifies why SO needs moderators. The question is "I want this GIVE IT TO ME. I refuse to do any research on the subject." It should have been closed in 2009, but SO hadn't been inundated with horrible questions like that yet. The current moderation, while having gone a little too far I agree, came into being because of questions like that. You're conflating 'Is this useful?' with 'Does this belong here?' I suppose someone else doing your work is always useful to you, but it doesn't belong on SO. There are questions that get closed where people have done their work and have asked in a good way. Current SO moderation has gone too far in cases. However, this is not one of those cases.

mgav 13y ago

rmrfrmrf, You may have written the greatest comment intro of all time: "I apologize in advance for sounding like an elitist prick..."

neya 13y ago

My frustration isn't fueled by sitting by an armchair and imagining about a philosophical problem that doesn't exist yet. I am talking about a REAL issue of Stackoverflow. While my php sessions example was average indeed, I would point you out some specific hurdles faced myself while using the site. For example, while securing cookies for authentication (language independent, but try JAVA for this example), you could use two routes - Either Encrypt then HMAC it or, use something that combines this both by default (like AES-GCM). Now, if you search on this particular subject on SO, you would find genuine questions messed up and half of them migrated to crypto.stackexchange.com and the rest to security.stackexchange.com. And this is the crux of my parent comment. Sorry if I appeared to be sitting on an armchair thinking about what debates I could stir while in reality I'm just like any other developer out there trying to find something useful from the site, hoping to make it better. And yes, your apology for being an elitist prick is accepted.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
mistermann 13y ago
This is a real problem with the stackexhange platform, which is fragmenting communities. While there is a genuine reason to do it, I think the decision was primarily based on "business". My opinion, I could be wrong.

Quarrelsome 13y ago

My major disappointment with SO is how we lost the desire to be helpful and ended up with the desire to be "correct". There are many questions that I would find helpful that get instantly closed because they are "not constructive". I'd like to hear my peers opinions on the respective merits of the latest javascript frameworks but that's "not constructive" so it gets shut down. I like to help people so I occasionally decipher weird English and try to work out what they need.... too often my submission of my reply is then blocked because the question has been closed. I dislike their rules about posting to jsfiddle (you must post enough code in SO for the question to stand alone). I dislike the cliquey and "current" aspect of meta. if you're late to the party then you've missed the discussion and we've already decided.

rmrfrmrf 13y ago
> we lost the desire to be helpful and ended up with the desire to be "correct". But that's the whole point of StackOverflow. Right on the about page is their mission statement: Ask questions, get answers, no distractions This site is all about getting answers. It's not a discussion forum. There's no chit-chat. And while yes, it may be interesting for you to know what the "latest and greatest" of the Javascript frameworks is, that's really not the point of the site. Why? Because the answer is inherently subjective. It's open to interpretation and flame wars. In a year, it will also be obsolete. Compare that to a trivial question, like: How do you create a while loop in C++03? Which is incredibly basic, yet will always have 1 correct answer that will then be added to SO's vast knowledge base. There's also the great side effect of StackOverflow then becoming a place for real-world problems for actual practicing programmers rather than a debate forum. The "best Javascript framework" might sound like a great topic for you, but it's also indicative that you haven't actually started any work on a project, compared to, say a person trying to figure out how to do two-way binding in Knockout.js. I'd much rather have a site full of real-world issues that are getting solved than a site dedicated to theory-based bickering.
- Quarrelsome 13y ago
  So what about the questions pertaining to "obsolete" frameworks, should we scrap those too? As exciting as this judgement of what is good information and bad information is its somewhat ironic that this categorisation is....... subjective. We have merely replaced flame wars with these debates. I don't think the time sink of productivity that you're evidently susceptible to (look at us both here!) is something that avoidable through censorship but a struggle that everyone must learn to deal with. "How to create a while loop in C++03" is as you stated a terrible question become obviously this person hasn't even started on a project. Why don't they read a book? Is this their homework? ;) Whereas when I found the closed question on javascript frameworks I was looking to make some major modifications to an existing web site. Problem is that its not as user-friendly as I'd like and the Javascript is becoming a mess so I think it would be a good call to go with backbone or knockout but I want a few sample opinions as part of my _research_. But according to a response you gave me elsewhere, talking to peers that are probably more experienced in a given part of the field doesn't count as research. D:. According to the parent of this response my work related questions aren't even "real-world". My issue with SO is they made a tool for developers who used it in many different ways. Then over the course of the next year and a half they started locking down on how _they_ wanted it used, (and by "they" I mean the most aggressive culture that prevailed amongst the owners/mods) I just find this a disappointment and a missed opportunity. I had contributed over 10k's worth of rep there but after a while I just stopped going. It stopped being fun, it was no longer a community, we were no longer trying to help others as our primary goal. It made me sad.

coldtea 13y ago

>I apologize in advance for sounding like an elitist prick, but in my mind, community-driven sites like StackOverflow, Reddit, Wikipedia, are prone to the noise of do-nothing armchair experts (especially in this economy with the unemployment rate) who have nothing better to do than stir philosophical debates over nothing. One man's "philosophical debate over nothing" is another man's passion. And one man's "productivity" is another man's who gives a fuck.