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Could somebody please remove Lennart Poettering? This systemd thing is a mess that tries to do way too much. I've had a huge pain rewriting couple dozens of ini

by naquad 13y ago

Could somebody please remove Lennart Poettering? This systemd thing is a mess that tries to do way too much. I've had a huge pain rewriting couple dozens of init.d scripts with custom logic to service files. Friends of mine complained on that too. I'm really glad that systemd is not adopted Debian so I won't have this pain on servers. Also journalctl is not a convinient tool, less and bunch of files were working much better for me.

_delirium 13y ago
Debian is likely to switch to systemd as the default in the next release, fwiw, though you will have the option to use sysvinit if you wish.
- naquad 13y ago
  The fact that systemd is spreading is depressing me. Thank god there'll be at least alternative.
- bbanyc 13y ago
  It's far from decided, and controversial to say the least. The systemd package maintainers are certainly acting like they're going to be the default, but it isn't their call.
  - bitwize 13y ago
    When ksystemd is released they'll have no choice!
the_mitsuhiko 13y ago
> less and bunch of files were working much better for me Just because it works for you does not mean it works for everybody else. The mess of log files below /var/log has been a problem for a long time. The format is not descriptive enough, there timestamps are second resolution only, no timezone information, and yet the times are in local timezone. Please don't hold on /var/log/messages just because it has been like that for ages. That should not be the justification for it existing. > I've had a huge pain rewriting couple dozens of init.d scripts with custom logic to service files. That's funny, because my experience has been that writing init.d scripts is painful and even package maintainers sometimes get it wrong.
- naquad 13y ago
  > Just because it works for you does not mean it works for everybody else. The mess of log files below /var/log has been a problem for a long time. The format is not descriptive enough, there timestamps are second resolution only, no timezone information, and yet the times are in local timezone. Have you ever tried to actually configure your syslog? > Please don't hold on /var/log/messages just because it has been like that for ages. That should not be the justification for it existing. Seriously, did you ever try to configure it? > That's funny, because my experience has been that writing init.d scripts is painful and even package maintainers sometimes get it wrong. For simple cases init.d script is mostly overkill, personally I had to write generator for this stuff. Solved 99% of probles in simple cases. But in complex cases where you split configuration (hello /etc/{conf.d,default}/*) or need to make custom actions (no matter which), service files lose. Now you have to write a wrapper that will be actually started by systemd. Who were saying what about redunant entities?
- Karunamon 13y ago
  >The mess of log files below /var/log has been a problem for a long time. How so? It follows the *NIX "everything is a file" philosophy, so they can easily be processed by other utilities that everybody already knows. >The format is not descriptive enough You mean the standard filepath? /var/log/(daemon name). You mean the actual textual format of a syslog message? Timestamp, daemon, facility.severity, message. If your messages are useless, isn't that a function of what's creating them, rather than what's capturing them? What additional data do you want that you're not seeing? >no timezone information, and yet the times are in local timezone What other timezone should they be in? Personally I think it's easier to look at the system clock (actually, I usually don't even have to do that, since I have a clock in the corner of my screen session) and make a mental note what timezone you're in rather than add two bytes to every message. >Please don't hold on /var/log/messages just because it has been like that for ages. That should not be the justification for it existing. It's the thing that wants to change the way it's always been done that has to justify itself, not the other way around. What does the systemd journal give us that's worth throwing out decades of knowledge and muscle memory? Configuring syslog isn't exactly a great feat of skill either.. pick your favorite daemon, it still follows the general format of (messages from this thing) (with this characteristic) (go here)
lucian1900 13y ago
Could somebody please remove all the people that hate Lennart Poettering? This systemd thing is precisely what we all need! sysvinit is archaic and upstart is quite buggy and lacks good tools. Have you even seen the systemd and Journal tools? I've wanted that for years.
- naquad 13y ago
  Then go for it. Use it yourself, I don't mind that. Fork Debian/Arch/Ubuntu whatever and be happy. I don't want that.
  - jvreeland 13y ago
    Arch uses systemd by default
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
darklajid 13y ago
Could someone please remove Lennart Poettering - from the f..ing thread title? - from the discussion? That's beyond insane. Leave the man alone. Disagree all you like, but this "Ah, that guy that ruined my life with Pulseaudio is now going to take over other stuff" whining, this crappy attitude _really_ needs to go. Start arguments against the technology, take part in the projects (-> here, Fedora) and vote against decisions you don't like, but don't start running around with pitchforks. That's really, really low.
- naquad 13y ago
  Oh! Indeed we forgot to talk about moral in UNIX-like OS software discussion. Oh my, how could we?..
  - darklajid 13y ago
    You consider 'Remove that person please' a software discussion? In what world? Did you even discuss software? I see just an attack against a person and some vague anecdotes, "friends complain too", waive hand. Note that your post is infuriating, but the submission is worse. This thread is why title moderation has a right to exist (for future reference, given that I hope someone's going to fix the title: It was "Lennart Poettering wants to remove syslogd; use systemd journal instead").
    - lawl 13y ago
      Would you tell me what title you'd expect? I honestly don't know what you think is wrong with it. I don't think ranting against the title without providing a reason and/or better suggestion is very constructive.
      - darklajid 13y ago
        I considered that obvious. "F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog" would be a good choice: It's the subject (both 'the mail header called subject' and 'the subject to discuss') of the thread you linked to. Rephrasing that a la "Proposal to remove a syslog from Fedora default installations" would be fine. Dragging a person into the title is just asking for trouble and attacks and serves no purpose. The proposal is technical, the discussion should be technical. You deliberately put his name into the title. Why? And why just him, not both owners: Change owner(s): Lennart Poettering, Matthew Miller You had an agenda, even if it wasn't a conscious decision. That's just wrong (and not constructive either ;-p)

by naquad 13y ago

_delirium 13y ago

Debian is likely to switch to systemd as the default in the next release, fwiw, though you will have the option to use sysvinit if you wish.

naquad 13y ago
The fact that systemd is spreading is depressing me. Thank god there'll be at least alternative.
bbanyc 13y ago
It's far from decided, and controversial to say the least. The systemd package maintainers are certainly acting like they're going to be the default, but it isn't their call.
- bitwize 13y ago
  When ksystemd is released they'll have no choice!

the_mitsuhiko 13y ago

> less and bunch of files were working much better for me Just because it works for you does not mean it works for everybody else. The mess of log files below /var/log has been a problem for a long time. The format is not descriptive enough, there timestamps are second resolution only, no timezone information, and yet the times are in local timezone. Please don't hold on /var/log/messages just because it has been like that for ages. That should not be the justification for it existing. > I've had a huge pain rewriting couple dozens of init.d scripts with custom logic to service files. That's funny, because my experience has been that writing init.d scripts is painful and even package maintainers sometimes get it wrong.

naquad 13y ago
> Just because it works for you does not mean it works for everybody else. The mess of log files below /var/log has been a problem for a long time. The format is not descriptive enough, there timestamps are second resolution only, no timezone information, and yet the times are in local timezone. Have you ever tried to actually configure your syslog? > Please don't hold on /var/log/messages just because it has been like that for ages. That should not be the justification for it existing. Seriously, did you ever try to configure it? > That's funny, because my experience has been that writing init.d scripts is painful and even package maintainers sometimes get it wrong. For simple cases init.d script is mostly overkill, personally I had to write generator for this stuff. Solved 99% of probles in simple cases. But in complex cases where you split configuration (hello /etc/{conf.d,default}/*) or need to make custom actions (no matter which), service files lose. Now you have to write a wrapper that will be actually started by systemd. Who were saying what about redunant entities?
Karunamon 13y ago
>The mess of log files below /var/log has been a problem for a long time. How so? It follows the *NIX "everything is a file" philosophy, so they can easily be processed by other utilities that everybody already knows. >The format is not descriptive enough You mean the standard filepath? /var/log/(daemon name). You mean the actual textual format of a syslog message? Timestamp, daemon, facility.severity, message. If your messages are useless, isn't that a function of what's creating them, rather than what's capturing them? What additional data do you want that you're not seeing? >no timezone information, and yet the times are in local timezone What other timezone should they be in? Personally I think it's easier to look at the system clock (actually, I usually don't even have to do that, since I have a clock in the corner of my screen session) and make a mental note what timezone you're in rather than add two bytes to every message. >Please don't hold on /var/log/messages just because it has been like that for ages. That should not be the justification for it existing. It's the thing that wants to change the way it's always been done that has to justify itself, not the other way around. What does the systemd journal give us that's worth throwing out decades of knowledge and muscle memory? Configuring syslog isn't exactly a great feat of skill either.. pick your favorite daemon, it still follows the general format of (messages from this thing) (with this characteristic) (go here)

lucian1900 13y ago

Could somebody please remove all the people that hate Lennart Poettering? This systemd thing is precisely what we all need! sysvinit is archaic and upstart is quite buggy and lacks good tools. Have you even seen the systemd and Journal tools? I've wanted that for years.

naquad 13y ago
Then go for it. Use it yourself, I don't mind that. Fork Debian/Arch/Ubuntu whatever and be happy. I don't want that.
- jvreeland 13y ago
  Arch uses systemd by default
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]

darklajid 13y ago

Could someone please remove Lennart Poettering - from the f..ing thread title? - from the discussion? That's beyond insane. Leave the man alone. Disagree all you like, but this "Ah, that guy that ruined my life with Pulseaudio is now going to take over other stuff" whining, this crappy attitude _really_ needs to go. Start arguments against the technology, take part in the projects (-> here, Fedora) and vote against decisions you don't like, but don't start running around with pitchforks. That's really, really low.

naquad 13y ago
Oh! Indeed we forgot to talk about moral in UNIX-like OS software discussion. Oh my, how could we?..
- darklajid 13y ago
  You consider 'Remove that person please' a software discussion? In what world? Did you even discuss software? I see just an attack against a person and some vague anecdotes, "friends complain too", waive hand. Note that your post is infuriating, but the submission is worse. This thread is why title moderation has a right to exist (for future reference, given that I hope someone's going to fix the title: It was "Lennart Poettering wants to remove syslogd; use systemd journal instead").
  - lawl 13y ago
    Would you tell me what title you'd expect? I honestly don't know what you think is wrong with it. I don't think ranting against the title without providing a reason and/or better suggestion is very constructive.
    - darklajid 13y ago
      I considered that obvious. "F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog" would be a good choice: It's the subject (both 'the mail header called subject' and 'the subject to discuss') of the thread you linked to. Rephrasing that a la "Proposal to remove a syslog from Fedora default installations" would be fine. Dragging a person into the title is just asking for trouble and attacks and serves no purpose. The proposal is technical, the discussion should be technical. You deliberately put his name into the title. Why? And why just him, not both owners: Change owner(s): Lennart Poettering, Matthew Miller You had an agenda, even if it wasn't a conscious decision. That's just wrong (and not constructive either ;-p)