8 ms·

Lennart Poettering wants to remove syslogd, use systemd journal instead

38 points by lawl 13y ago

mercurial 13y ago
He just wants to remove syslogd from the default Fedora install, to be clear.
- qznc 13y ago
  Also, the title is misleading ("instead"), since systemd logging is already in use for several releases.
madhouse 13y ago
While I'm not a Fedora user, I wish them good luck, and hope the change goes through. It would be of great benefit for other distributions aswell, and perhaps we could get rid of traditional syslog for good at some point... (wishful thinking, I know).
- mordae 13y ago
  According to Lennart, Arch have already moved to journal-only default so Fedora is not really leading there...
  - madhouse 13y ago
    Never said it would be leading. But more distributions switching to journal-only is a good thing, because that makes it that much easier for the rest to follow suit.
the_mitsuhiko 13y ago
More power to him. The Journal is a much more interesting and useful approach than syslog.
buster 13y ago
I didn't know that systemd also provides a syslog functionality. But it makes me wonder: - the wiki pages mention that the default syslog should be removed because it makes no sense to have two solutions - the pages also say that for more features you should install a "real" syslog solution (rsyslog, syslog-ng) Question: Why does systemd then come with syslog functionality in the first place?! This is a honest question, not trolling, what will i gain from systemd journal? Everything points to a) pain to switch and b) less functionality. Whatever that is.. After reading a bit, it appears that this journal is some binary data.. Call me old fashioned but i really like my easily transferable and everywhere readable plain text logs.. why is it binary?! * https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/NoDefaultSyslog https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/NoDefaultSyslog * https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/systemd-journal https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/systemd-journal Edit: Thanks for the explanations on the binary format, much appreciated.
- coolj 13y ago
  I didn't know that either. From reading the linked thread in OP, it seems like the idea is that the systemd journal comes in at a lower level (started from initrd? kernel module? no idea...), so it helps with debugging early boot process before /var is mounted. But I also think there should be standard syslog for reasons I just mentioned in another comment. Seems like there are good reasons to have both.
  - krakensden 13y ago
    It's syslog-compatible: http://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd-journald.service.html http://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd-jour... I'm not sure why they don't also write a text log. I guess it would mean giving up their nifty cryptographically-verified-authentic binary format. I may be wrong, I haven't booted up my fedora machine in a couple months.
    - coolj 13y ago
      They wouldn't have to give that up by writing a text log. They'd just be presenting more than one source of truth about the the log, from less secure to more secure.
coolj 13y ago
It sounds like systemd journal is a good thing, especially for early boot debugging. That said, I don't get the proposal to remove the standard logger. Sure, the logs are duplicated...but having important data stored redundantly seems like a good thing. Plus, you still keep the "everything's a file" philosophy, so you can continue to access the log file in situations where accessing a binary is unfeasible or impossible. The example of a box where /usr is hosed and you only have access to in-memory programs like the shell, is maybe not the best example. Perhaps a more practical one is the need to monitor / alert on certain log entries in a legacy or upstream system that expects to open and watch a file. As all distros I know of include a log file rotation facility that deletes old system logs after some set period, having duplicated data in the journal and in traditional system log on disk seems like it would be a problem only in special cases. Cost-to-benefit, it seems to me there should still be a traditional syslog provider included by default.
- ciupicri 13y ago
  > The example of a box where /usr is hosed Separated /usr is not recommended anymore (deprecated) and Fedora at least doesn't support this setup.
  - coolj 13y ago
    Good point, but not my example.[1] I found it a bit weak tbh. I think a more common and compelling case is where you need to treat the system log as a file input to some existing tool / system. Sure, you can install a traditional logger if you need it in such a case, but what do you gain by not including it? A little bit of disk space? I wonder if there's an unstated motive behind the proposal to promote a more pervasive use of systemd. I mean, being honest, admins aren't going to go to the journal unless they need something the traditional log file doesn't provide (which would be rarely if rsyslog and ilk are pulling everything they can out of journal anyway). Nobody is going to switch to journalctl | fgrep OMGERROR unless they have to (well, they won't have to, but admins are lazy, and if that's the default way, then they will use it rather than installing a new package). Just look how long it took (is taking) for admins to move to ip vs ifconfig/route/etc... [1] http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.redhat.fedora.devel/182278 http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.redhat.fedora.devel/182...
naquad 13y ago
Could somebody please remove Lennart Poettering? This systemd thing is a mess that tries to do way too much. I've had a huge pain rewriting couple dozens of init.d scripts with custom logic to service files. Friends of mine complained on that too. I'm really glad that systemd is not adopted Debian so I won't have this pain on servers. Also journalctl is not a convinient tool, less and bunch of files were working much better for me.
- _delirium 13y ago
  Debian is likely to switch to systemd as the default in the next release, fwiw, though you will have the option to use sysvinit if you wish.
  - naquad 13y ago
    The fact that systemd is spreading is depressing me. Thank god there'll be at least alternative.
  - bbanyc 13y ago
    It's far from decided, and controversial to say the least. The systemd package maintainers are certainly acting like they're going to be the default, but it isn't their call.
    - bitwize 13y ago
      When ksystemd is released they'll have no choice!
- the_mitsuhiko 13y ago
  > less and bunch of files were working much better for me Just because it works for you does not mean it works for everybody else. The mess of log files below /var/log has been a problem for a long time. The format is not descriptive enough, there timestamps are second resolution only, no timezone information, and yet the times are in local timezone. Please don't hold on /var/log/messages just because it has been like that for ages. That should not be the justification for it existing. > I've had a huge pain rewriting couple dozens of init.d scripts with custom logic to service files. That's funny, because my experience has been that writing init.d scripts is painful and even package maintainers sometimes get it wrong.
nodata 13y ago
Isn't journalctl that thing that auto-pipes? shudder Fewer files, AND auto-piping! Not very unixlike.
diaz 13y ago
For the record, as stated in that thread archlinux moved a long time ago. Some of the mailing list threads and the annoucement: * Annoucement: https://www.archlinux.org/news/install-medium-20121006-introduces-systemd/ https://www.archlinux.org/news/install-medium-20121006-intro... * Discussion on arch-general: https://mailman.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-general/2012-August/029785.html https://mailman.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-general/2012-Au... * Discussion on arch-dev: https://mailman.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-dev-public/2012-August/023389.html https://mailman.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-dev-public/2012... And there should be older threads but I dont have time to look for them now.
- darklajid 13y ago
  Is that the same thing? Yes, Arch is using systemd. So is Fedora. The argument that is linked wants to remove a syslogd implementation from the default installation. Right now, the default is journal (cannot be removed, if you're using systemd as explained in that discussion) _plus_ syslogd. The proposal asks for journal w/o syslogd by default (but available as a package of course). That said: My Arch systems don't run a syslogd either, so .. maybe they switched 'completely' in that announcement?
  - diaz 13y ago
    When systemd became the default in Arch a syslogd implementation became optional. Just after a few weeks after installing systemd and running it side by side with syslogd I completly switched to a pure systemd + journald without the syslogd. That's how I remember it at least, I may be wrong in some point. --------- EDIT: Ok, I went and searched a little more, here is what I found related to systemd + journald + syslog discussion: * systemd's journal and syslog: https://mailman.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-general/2012-February/025067.html https://mailman.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-general/2012-Fe... * Arch wiki, about journald: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Systemd#Journald_in_conjunction_with_syslog https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Systemd#Journald_in_con... I think it's interesting to know how Arch did the switch and how it is used, considering this current discussion in the fedora mailing list.
kps 13y ago
“Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.” — Henry Spencer (ca. 1987)
- makomk 13y ago
  They're not even reinventing Unix poorly - they're reinventing the Windows event logger badly, and I'm not aware of anyone that ever really liked that in the first place, especially Windows admins.
gnu8 13y ago
I'm waiting for these jokers to replace /etc with a database that requires an editor that only runs on Linux x86/x64 to modify anything.
- airencracken 13y ago
  They already store systemd configuration in /usr/lib/systemd and symlink to /etc where you can override stuff, so you're not that far off.
peterwwillis 13y ago
Side effects: - The journal has limitations, like what files it stores the journal in and the [default] size of the journal, which is only 10% of the filesystem size. Which sounds retarded to anyone who has ever created a /var partition for logs, but anyway. (Configuring multiple syslog files is an efficient hack to spread log data load across filesystems, which AFAIK systemd does not support) - All applications that were developed specifically with syslog support (such as using the glibc syslog functions, or the command-line tools, or the flat log files) will break. The fix is to reinstall syslog and configure it to use a journal device that systemd exports [once you configure it to]. - Any devices that this host was collecting syslogs for, or any syslog collection servers this host was sending its logs to, will break. (Syslog is the only de-facto standard [enterprise or otherwise] for sending or collecting logs on a network, besides maybe snmp, but that's not really logging) - Systemd's programming-oriented control over log journals means you can only do things it lets you do. For example, there is built-in log rotation based both time and disk space used, but no function (that I know of) to tell it to rotate on-demand, which is a common sysadmin task. You are removing all the previous flexibility of syslog logs by using these binary journals. - If you support more than one operating system, or hell, more than one Linux distro, you have to install syslogd and configure systemd to use it, or you'll be doing twice the work just to support Fedora's mandatory new logging system along with every other system's syslogd. (Even if every distro switches overnight you have legacy systems and code to deal with) Weird how Fedora already had a project to fix logging. I wonder what happened to that. https://fedorahosted.org/lumberjack/ https://fedorahosted.org/lumberjack/ The basic proposal seems to be: I have this new logging system, so remove your old system because mine is better. Which is no better an argument than: I have this old stable logging system that works great, so your new system needs to chill the fuck out until it supports all the legacy stuff. It doesn't seem like there is any need to remove syslog. The guy just wants it to disappear.
- npsimons 13y ago
  Which sounds retarded to anyone who has ever created a /var partition for log Oh, but don't you know? You shouldn't need more than one partition; they're getting rid of separate /var (I only half joke; after they broke separate /usr by linking boot/system things to it, they declared separate /usr to be "deprecated"). If you support more than one operating system, Another one of Poettering's favorite ideas is that nothing besides Linux matters. I may agree with him for my own personal computing setup, I think it's flat out unprofessional to eschew portability and cross-platform standards. Even ignoring the obvious benefits, making things portable can reveal bugs and unstated assumptions in your design which will trip you up later. It doesn't seem like there is any need to remove syslog. The guy just wants it to disappear. If there's one thing that strikes me about Lennart (and others, such as those working on Wayland), it's what appears to be a severe case of myopia, or just flat out willful ignorance, of systems that have come before. The egotism is astounding. Granted, sound under Linux was far from perfect (so I've heard; it has always just worked for me), and PulseAudio eventually got stable and efficient enough to be be acceptable. That being said, it does feel a whole lot like "here's how we're going to do it, shut up and take it." It would be more palatable if they identified problems, proposed solutions, and then canvassed the community. Hell, even just proposing solutions as patches or wholly separate projects and letting the community vote with their feet would be preferable to this dictatorship mentality. EDIT: Just to be clear, I distrust Lennart (and Sievers') approach to system software because they don't seem to think of the bigger picture or be aware of the past. Do you know why so many people are attached to the "legacy" "deprecated" ways of doing things? Because they work, across multiple platforms, multiple OSes and multiple paradigms (embedded, server, desktop, cluster, mobile, and future ones we can't even imagine). Because other ways have been tried (eg, binary logging on Windows) and failed. Yes, some things could be improved (dependency based boot is a good idea). But other things, such as the core modularity principle in UNIX, are there for a reason, and should not be lightly tossed aside.
Tobu 13y ago
I haven't seen it in the discussion, but systemd's journal has horrible read performance. Apparently it's poorly indexed, or the disk layout has issues.
txutxu 13y ago
Component A) Role: init the system Component B) Role: log dispatching/receiving/sending/filtering And now what? A component which partially does in a non _standard_ way, incompatible with all third party tools (in the sense the tools needs to be modified or adapted). What is next, systemd will replace cron too, in powerpoint format? Reading the whole thread, I have a new concept in my mind... "UEFI cookies", didn't know about them.
- rapala 13y ago
  >What is next, systemd will replace cron too, in powerpoint format? systemd has some cron-like features: http://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd.timer.html http://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd.time...
  - txutxu 13y ago
    Thanks for the information. Really does not remember to me my first impressions with cron :) I don't doubt of the quality of this guy and it's ideas and solutions, I cannot say I'm better. And I've seen many "weird for me" things across the years coming from upstream to my systems. I'm tired of fight with abstraction layers to try to make things simple. But in my work I use to be condemned to use whatever upstream picks across different versions. Again, thanks for the information.
andrewaylett 13y ago
Can I just point out, for all the Lennart-haters, that he doesn't have the final word in what gets implemented in a distro. It's not like he's shutting down any syslog projects either, or threatening to kill the maintainers' cats if they don't use his software. Distro maintainers move to his software because they think it's an improvement over what they had before. Case in point: Lennart works for Red Hat, but Arch is actually further along than Fedora in adopting the Journal. Personally, I removed my syslog daemon about two months ago, and haven't missed it. I also switched to Fedora back in the new year (from Ubuntu) specifically because I wanted to try out Gnome 3 and Systemd. Loving it so far :).

38 points by lawl 13y ago

mercurial 13y ago

He just wants to remove syslogd from the default Fedora install, to be clear.

qznc 13y ago
Also, the title is misleading ("instead"), since systemd logging is already in use for several releases.

madhouse 13y ago

While I'm not a Fedora user, I wish them good luck, and hope the change goes through. It would be of great benefit for other distributions aswell, and perhaps we could get rid of traditional syslog for good at some point... (wishful thinking, I know).

mordae 13y ago
According to Lennart, Arch have already moved to journal-only default so Fedora is not really leading there...
- madhouse 13y ago
  Never said it would be leading. But more distributions switching to journal-only is a good thing, because that makes it that much easier for the rest to follow suit.

the_mitsuhiko 13y ago

More power to him. The Journal is a much more interesting and useful approach than syslog.

buster 13y ago

I didn't know that systemd also provides a syslog functionality. But it makes me wonder: - the wiki pages mention that the default syslog should be removed because it makes no sense to have two solutions - the pages also say that for more features you should install a "real" syslog solution (rsyslog, syslog-ng) Question: Why does systemd then come with syslog functionality in the first place?! This is a honest question, not trolling, what will i gain from systemd journal? Everything points to a) pain to switch and b) less functionality. Whatever that is.. After reading a bit, it appears that this journal is some binary data.. Call me old fashioned but i really like my easily transferable and everywhere readable plain text logs.. why is it binary?! * https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/NoDefaultSyslog https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/NoDefaultSyslog * https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/systemd-journal https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/systemd-journal Edit: Thanks for the explanations on the binary format, much appreciated.

coolj 13y ago
I didn't know that either. From reading the linked thread in OP, it seems like the idea is that the systemd journal comes in at a lower level (started from initrd? kernel module? no idea...), so it helps with debugging early boot process before /var is mounted. But I also think there should be standard syslog for reasons I just mentioned in another comment. Seems like there are good reasons to have both.
- krakensden 13y ago
  It's syslog-compatible: http://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd-journald.service.html http://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd-jour... I'm not sure why they don't also write a text log. I guess it would mean giving up their nifty cryptographically-verified-authentic binary format. I may be wrong, I haven't booted up my fedora machine in a couple months.
  - coolj 13y ago
    They wouldn't have to give that up by writing a text log. They'd just be presenting more than one source of truth about the the log, from less secure to more secure.

coolj 13y ago

It sounds like systemd journal is a good thing, especially for early boot debugging. That said, I don't get the proposal to remove the standard logger. Sure, the logs are duplicated...but having important data stored redundantly seems like a good thing. Plus, you still keep the "everything's a file" philosophy, so you can continue to access the log file in situations where accessing a binary is unfeasible or impossible. The example of a box where /usr is hosed and you only have access to in-memory programs like the shell, is maybe not the best example. Perhaps a more practical one is the need to monitor / alert on certain log entries in a legacy or upstream system that expects to open and watch a file. As all distros I know of include a log file rotation facility that deletes old system logs after some set period, having duplicated data in the journal and in traditional system log on disk seems like it would be a problem only in special cases. Cost-to-benefit, it seems to me there should still be a traditional syslog provider included by default.

ciupicri 13y ago
> The example of a box where /usr is hosed Separated /usr is not recommended anymore (deprecated) and Fedora at least doesn't support this setup.
- coolj 13y ago
  Good point, but not my example.[1] I found it a bit weak tbh. I think a more common and compelling case is where you need to treat the system log as a file input to some existing tool / system. Sure, you can install a traditional logger if you need it in such a case, but what do you gain by not including it? A little bit of disk space? I wonder if there's an unstated motive behind the proposal to promote a more pervasive use of systemd. I mean, being honest, admins aren't going to go to the journal unless they need something the traditional log file doesn't provide (which would be rarely if rsyslog and ilk are pulling everything they can out of journal anyway). Nobody is going to switch to journalctl | fgrep OMGERROR unless they have to (well, they won't have to, but admins are lazy, and if that's the default way, then they will use it rather than installing a new package). Just look how long it took (is taking) for admins to move to ip vs ifconfig/route/etc... [1] http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.redhat.fedora.devel/182278 http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.redhat.fedora.devel/182...

naquad 13y ago

Could somebody please remove Lennart Poettering? This systemd thing is a mess that tries to do way too much. I've had a huge pain rewriting couple dozens of init.d scripts with custom logic to service files. Friends of mine complained on that too. I'm really glad that systemd is not adopted Debian so I won't have this pain on servers. Also journalctl is not a convinient tool, less and bunch of files were working much better for me.

_delirium 13y ago
Debian is likely to switch to systemd as the default in the next release, fwiw, though you will have the option to use sysvinit if you wish.
- naquad 13y ago
  The fact that systemd is spreading is depressing me. Thank god there'll be at least alternative.
- bbanyc 13y ago
  It's far from decided, and controversial to say the least. The systemd package maintainers are certainly acting like they're going to be the default, but it isn't their call.
  - bitwize 13y ago
    When ksystemd is released they'll have no choice!
the_mitsuhiko 13y ago
> less and bunch of files were working much better for me Just because it works for you does not mean it works for everybody else. The mess of log files below /var/log has been a problem for a long time. The format is not descriptive enough, there timestamps are second resolution only, no timezone information, and yet the times are in local timezone. Please don't hold on /var/log/messages just because it has been like that for ages. That should not be the justification for it existing. > I've had a huge pain rewriting couple dozens of init.d scripts with custom logic to service files. That's funny, because my experience has been that writing init.d scripts is painful and even package maintainers sometimes get it wrong.

nodata 13y ago

Isn't journalctl that thing that auto-pipes? shudder Fewer files, AND auto-piping! Not very unixlike.

diaz 13y ago

For the record, as stated in that thread archlinux moved a long time ago. Some of the mailing list threads and the annoucement: * Annoucement: https://www.archlinux.org/news/install-medium-20121006-introduces-systemd/ https://www.archlinux.org/news/install-medium-20121006-intro... * Discussion on arch-general: https://mailman.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-general/2012-August/029785.html https://mailman.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-general/2012-Au... * Discussion on arch-dev: https://mailman.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-dev-public/2012-August/023389.html https://mailman.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-dev-public/2012... And there should be older threads but I dont have time to look for them now.

darklajid 13y ago
Is that the same thing? Yes, Arch is using systemd. So is Fedora. The argument that is linked wants to remove a syslogd implementation from the default installation. Right now, the default is journal (cannot be removed, if you're using systemd as explained in that discussion) _plus_ syslogd. The proposal asks for journal w/o syslogd by default (but available as a package of course). That said: My Arch systems don't run a syslogd either, so .. maybe they switched 'completely' in that announcement?
- diaz 13y ago
  When systemd became the default in Arch a syslogd implementation became optional. Just after a few weeks after installing systemd and running it side by side with syslogd I completly switched to a pure systemd + journald without the syslogd. That's how I remember it at least, I may be wrong in some point. --------- EDIT: Ok, I went and searched a little more, here is what I found related to systemd + journald + syslog discussion: * systemd's journal and syslog: https://mailman.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-general/2012-February/025067.html https://mailman.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-general/2012-Fe... * Arch wiki, about journald: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Systemd#Journald_in_conjunction_with_syslog https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Systemd#Journald_in_con... I think it's interesting to know how Arch did the switch and how it is used, considering this current discussion in the fedora mailing list.

kps 13y ago

“Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.” — Henry Spencer (ca. 1987)

makomk 13y ago
They're not even reinventing Unix poorly - they're reinventing the Windows event logger badly, and I'm not aware of anyone that ever really liked that in the first place, especially Windows admins.

gnu8 13y ago

I'm waiting for these jokers to replace /etc with a database that requires an editor that only runs on Linux x86/x64 to modify anything.

airencracken 13y ago
They already store systemd configuration in /usr/lib/systemd and symlink to /etc where you can override stuff, so you're not that far off.

peterwwillis 13y ago

Side effects: - The journal has limitations, like what files it stores the journal in and the [default] size of the journal, which is only 10% of the filesystem size. Which sounds retarded to anyone who has ever created a /var partition for logs, but anyway. (Configuring multiple syslog files is an efficient hack to spread log data load across filesystems, which AFAIK systemd does not support) - All applications that were developed specifically with syslog support (such as using the glibc syslog functions, or the command-line tools, or the flat log files) will break. The fix is to reinstall syslog and configure it to use a journal device that systemd exports [once you configure it to]. - Any devices that this host was collecting syslogs for, or any syslog collection servers this host was sending its logs to, will break. (Syslog is the only de-facto standard [enterprise or otherwise] for sending or collecting logs on a network, besides maybe snmp, but that's not really logging) - Systemd's programming-oriented control over log journals means you can only do things it lets you do. For example, there is built-in log rotation based both time and disk space used, but no function (that I know of) to tell it to rotate on-demand, which is a common sysadmin task. You are removing all the previous flexibility of syslog logs by using these binary journals. - If you support more than one operating system, or hell, more than one Linux distro, you have to install syslogd and configure systemd to use it, or you'll be doing twice the work just to support Fedora's mandatory new logging system along with every other system's syslogd. (Even if every distro switches overnight you have legacy systems and code to deal with) Weird how Fedora already had a project to fix logging. I wonder what happened to that. https://fedorahosted.org/lumberjack/ https://fedorahosted.org/lumberjack/ The basic proposal seems to be: I have this new logging system, so remove your old system because mine is better. Which is no better an argument than: I have this old stable logging system that works great, so your new system needs to chill the fuck out until it supports all the legacy stuff. It doesn't seem like there is any need to remove syslog. The guy just wants it to disappear.

npsimons 13y ago
Which sounds retarded to anyone who has ever created a /var partition for log Oh, but don't you know? You shouldn't need more than one partition; they're getting rid of separate /var (I only half joke; after they broke separate /usr by linking boot/system things to it, they declared separate /usr to be "deprecated"). If you support more than one operating system, Another one of Poettering's favorite ideas is that nothing besides Linux matters. I may agree with him for my own personal computing setup, I think it's flat out unprofessional to eschew portability and cross-platform standards. Even ignoring the obvious benefits, making things portable can reveal bugs and unstated assumptions in your design which will trip you up later. It doesn't seem like there is any need to remove syslog. The guy just wants it to disappear. If there's one thing that strikes me about Lennart (and others, such as those working on Wayland), it's what appears to be a severe case of myopia, or just flat out willful ignorance, of systems that have come before. The egotism is astounding. Granted, sound under Linux was far from perfect (so I've heard; it has always just worked for me), and PulseAudio eventually got stable and efficient enough to be be acceptable. That being said, it does feel a whole lot like "here's how we're going to do it, shut up and take it." It would be more palatable if they identified problems, proposed solutions, and then canvassed the community. Hell, even just proposing solutions as patches or wholly separate projects and letting the community vote with their feet would be preferable to this dictatorship mentality. EDIT: Just to be clear, I distrust Lennart (and Sievers') approach to system software because they don't seem to think of the bigger picture or be aware of the past. Do you know why so many people are attached to the "legacy" "deprecated" ways of doing things? Because they work, across multiple platforms, multiple OSes and multiple paradigms (embedded, server, desktop, cluster, mobile, and future ones we can't even imagine). Because other ways have been tried (eg, binary logging on Windows) and failed. Yes, some things could be improved (dependency based boot is a good idea). But other things, such as the core modularity principle in UNIX, are there for a reason, and should not be lightly tossed aside.

Tobu 13y ago

I haven't seen it in the discussion, but systemd's journal has horrible read performance. Apparently it's poorly indexed, or the disk layout has issues.

txutxu 13y ago

Component A) Role: init the system Component B) Role: log dispatching/receiving/sending/filtering And now what? A component which partially does in a non _standard_ way, incompatible with all third party tools (in the sense the tools needs to be modified or adapted). What is next, systemd will replace cron too, in powerpoint format? Reading the whole thread, I have a new concept in my mind... "UEFI cookies", didn't know about them.

rapala 13y ago
>What is next, systemd will replace cron too, in powerpoint format? systemd has some cron-like features: http://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd.timer.html http://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd.time...
- txutxu 13y ago
  Thanks for the information. Really does not remember to me my first impressions with cron :) I don't doubt of the quality of this guy and it's ideas and solutions, I cannot say I'm better. And I've seen many "weird for me" things across the years coming from upstream to my systems. I'm tired of fight with abstraction layers to try to make things simple. But in my work I use to be condemned to use whatever upstream picks across different versions. Again, thanks for the information.

andrewaylett 13y ago

Can I just point out, for all the Lennart-haters, that he doesn't have the final word in what gets implemented in a distro. It's not like he's shutting down any syslog projects either, or threatening to kill the maintainers' cats if they don't use his software. Distro maintainers move to his software because they think it's an improvement over what they had before. Case in point: Lennart works for Red Hat, but Arch is actually further along than Fedora in adopting the Journal. Personally, I removed my syslog daemon about two months ago, and haven't missed it. I also switched to Fedora back in the new year (from Ubuntu) specifically because I wanted to try out Gnome 3 and Systemd. Loving it so far :).