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9/11 was a single horrific event carried out by a small number of radicals. I don't think it holds a candle by any metric to the lives lost and damage done in

9/11 was a single horrific event carried out by a small number of radicals. I don't think it holds a candle by any metric to the lives lost and damage done in an actual government-run war scenario. We don't yet have foreign bombers blowing up cafes on a regular basis because somebody on their hit list was inside, but because of our actions, we someday might.

angersock 13y ago
And on that afternoon, there will be rage upon the twitters, and that evening, the news. And on the following day, we'll bomb the everliving christ out of the people we think are responsible, and on some day hence, we will be bombed in response. The wheel turns--might as well get into the drone and bomb business. :(
- Volpe 13y ago
  Actually I think you'll bomb a bunch of other random people (Iraq, Afghanistan), and continue to treat the responsible "country" (Saudi Arabia) as an ally and friend. Just before people rewrite history, afganistan and iraq governments had nothing to do with 9/11.
  - philwelch 13y ago
    Unless you're a kook, the people responsible for 9/11 were a group whose interests include overthrowing the Saudi government. The erstwhile Afghan "government", the Taliban, harbored them.
    - lostlogin 13y ago
      Yes, but don't be forgetting that the Taliban are a rebranded mujahideen. This crowd were US allies (or were they pawns?). Armed and trained.
      - briandon 13y ago
        And Italy was one of the Allies during WW1 before allying itself with Germany in WW2. During the fight against Germany, Austria-Hungary, and the Ottoman Empire, other nations provided assistance to Italy. Individuals jumped into the fray too. Hemingway, for example, was a volunteer ambulance driver in Italy in WW1. Beating the USA over the head post-911 with the club of having assisted anti-Soviet fighters in the 1970s and 1980s makes as much sense as castigating Italy's WW1-era allies and people like Hemingway in the late 1930s for having come to Italy's aid twenty years earlier.
        lostlogin 13y ago
        The US leaders who started these wars had no issue making comparisons to WW2 and claiming Bush compared to Churchill. Words such as 'Crusade' were used. Good versus Evil. Crappy comparisons have been a hallmark of the campaigns. What I said was, to my knowledge, fact. I was attempting to point out that friends can become enemies, so a bit of tact and care is obviously a good idea. And of course, claiming you're on a crusade and fighting evil is just plain BS. The US deserves castigation for its role in these conflicts, it has acted appallingly, as have others. My own country, New Zealand, has troops in Afghanistan and have been involved in some controversy. The only reason I can think of for this deployment is to brown nose a few so-called allies. Making the world safer one botch job, torture and killing at a time. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1470658/Mayor-of-America-compares-Bush-to-Churchill.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1... http://www.seattlepi.com/news/article/Bush-s-use-of-word-crusade-a-red-flag-1066045.php http://www.seattlepi.com/news/article/Bush-s-use-of-word-cru... http://www.3news.co.nz/Govt-cant-rule-out-SAS-link-in-Afghan-prisoner-torture/tabid/419/articleID/229127/Default.aspx http://www.3news.co.nz/Govt-cant-rule-out-SAS-link-in-Afghan...
      - philwelch 13y ago
        The Taliban are native Afghanis, mostly Pashtun. The mujahideen were Muslims from around the world who went to Afghanistan to defend it from the godless communists. Bin Laden was one of them, but not necessarily one that we armed and supported back then. (While the irony would be delicious, I don't know of any evidence that he ever had US support.)
    - PavlovsCat 13y ago
      Yes, fine, but: Saddam Hussein couldn't stand Al-Quaeda. So... what's up with that? I don't even care who did 9/11 and why, but I know how it was used. That alone is shameful enough -- with those kind of "friends" who the fuck needs enemies, right?
      - philwelch 13y ago
        Iraq wasn't directly related to al-Qaeda, no. From a geopolitical standpoint, replacing one of the most hostile governments in the region with a more favorable one had some interesting long term potential. Eliminating the root causes of terrorism requires significant geopolitical and socioeconomic change in the Muslim world. Installing a new government right in the middle of the region could go a long way to helping with that over the next few decades.
    - Volpe 13y ago
      So is an invasion of russia imminent? (RE: Snowden) Harbouring criminals is a reason to declare war?
      - philwelch 13y ago
        You seem to be one of those people who make bad arguments, and as soon as those bad arguments are debunked, you immediately switch to a completely separate bad argument without ever acknowledging that you were mistaken in the first place. Most likely, you're unwilling to listen to other viewpoints and just want to hear yourself talk on the internet. Have fun with that. I'm not inclined to play along.
        Volpe 13y ago
        I think you are projecting here. And attempting a moral high ground. Where was I wrong exactly? Please point it out, then you can return to your high ground. The argument remains the same, I drew a parallel with a current situation to highlight how ridiculous it was to blame the Taliban for 9/11 (as they had NOTHING to do with it). Just as Russia had nothing to do with Snowden (except that he's there).
madaxe 13y ago
Radical conservatives? Tin-foil hat aside, it strikes me as oddly coincidental that the folks who use drones these days to kill around the planet with impunity are the same folks who had several allegedly drone controlled airliners carry out an attack, garnering public support for several illegal wars. Just saying, it's all mightily convenient. As ever. As to foreign bombers... So? Most Americans agree drone strikes are a good thing, so surely they'd still be a good thing when they start happening on US soil?
- regal 13y ago
  I like how you say "tin-foil hat aside", then go on to state with what seems to be complete seriousness that 9/11 was carried out by the U.S. against the U.S. using drone-controlled passenger airplanes.
  - madaxe 13y ago
    And? You thought the 9/11 commission report was good and conclusive? WTC7 just "imploded" due to "natural causes"? And of course destroying all the evidence pronto was the best way to investigate the crime? I don't think a single word that comes out of the US (and UK) gov't is truthful. Why would they be truthful about 9/11?
  - LekkoscPiwa 13y ago
    No, but it was convenient in the same way the Reichstag fire was convenient.
    - madaxe 13y ago
      No no, it was filthy commies that started the reichstag fire, right?
      - LekkoscPiwa 13y ago
        making it even more convenient. The Nurimberg Laws could be passed thanks to this event. Almost as convenient as 9/11 so that the Patrot Act could be passed.

angersock 13y ago

And on that afternoon, there will be rage upon the twitters, and that evening, the news. And on the following day, we'll bomb the everliving christ out of the people we think are responsible, and on some day hence, we will be bombed in response. The wheel turns--might as well get into the drone and bomb business. :(

Volpe 13y ago
Actually I think you'll bomb a bunch of other random people (Iraq, Afghanistan), and continue to treat the responsible "country" (Saudi Arabia) as an ally and friend. Just before people rewrite history, afganistan and iraq governments had nothing to do with 9/11.
- philwelch 13y ago
  Unless you're a kook, the people responsible for 9/11 were a group whose interests include overthrowing the Saudi government. The erstwhile Afghan "government", the Taliban, harbored them.
  - lostlogin 13y ago
    Yes, but don't be forgetting that the Taliban are a rebranded mujahideen. This crowd were US allies (or were they pawns?). Armed and trained.
    - briandon 13y ago
      And Italy was one of the Allies during WW1 before allying itself with Germany in WW2. During the fight against Germany, Austria-Hungary, and the Ottoman Empire, other nations provided assistance to Italy. Individuals jumped into the fray too. Hemingway, for example, was a volunteer ambulance driver in Italy in WW1. Beating the USA over the head post-911 with the club of having assisted anti-Soviet fighters in the 1970s and 1980s makes as much sense as castigating Italy's WW1-era allies and people like Hemingway in the late 1930s for having come to Italy's aid twenty years earlier.
      - lostlogin 13y ago
        The US leaders who started these wars had no issue making comparisons to WW2 and claiming Bush compared to Churchill. Words such as 'Crusade' were used. Good versus Evil. Crappy comparisons have been a hallmark of the campaigns. What I said was, to my knowledge, fact. I was attempting to point out that friends can become enemies, so a bit of tact and care is obviously a good idea. And of course, claiming you're on a crusade and fighting evil is just plain BS. The US deserves castigation for its role in these conflicts, it has acted appallingly, as have others. My own country, New Zealand, has troops in Afghanistan and have been involved in some controversy. The only reason I can think of for this deployment is to brown nose a few so-called allies. Making the world safer one botch job, torture and killing at a time. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1470658/Mayor-of-America-compares-Bush-to-Churchill.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1... http://www.seattlepi.com/news/article/Bush-s-use-of-word-crusade-a-red-flag-1066045.php http://www.seattlepi.com/news/article/Bush-s-use-of-word-cru... http://www.3news.co.nz/Govt-cant-rule-out-SAS-link-in-Afghan-prisoner-torture/tabid/419/articleID/229127/Default.aspx http://www.3news.co.nz/Govt-cant-rule-out-SAS-link-in-Afghan...
    - philwelch 13y ago
      The Taliban are native Afghanis, mostly Pashtun. The mujahideen were Muslims from around the world who went to Afghanistan to defend it from the godless communists. Bin Laden was one of them, but not necessarily one that we armed and supported back then. (While the irony would be delicious, I don't know of any evidence that he ever had US support.)
  - PavlovsCat 13y ago
    Yes, fine, but: Saddam Hussein couldn't stand Al-Quaeda. So... what's up with that? I don't even care who did 9/11 and why, but I know how it was used. That alone is shameful enough -- with those kind of "friends" who the fuck needs enemies, right?
    - philwelch 13y ago
      Iraq wasn't directly related to al-Qaeda, no. From a geopolitical standpoint, replacing one of the most hostile governments in the region with a more favorable one had some interesting long term potential. Eliminating the root causes of terrorism requires significant geopolitical and socioeconomic change in the Muslim world. Installing a new government right in the middle of the region could go a long way to helping with that over the next few decades.
  - Volpe 13y ago
    So is an invasion of russia imminent? (RE: Snowden) Harbouring criminals is a reason to declare war?
    - philwelch 13y ago
      You seem to be one of those people who make bad arguments, and as soon as those bad arguments are debunked, you immediately switch to a completely separate bad argument without ever acknowledging that you were mistaken in the first place. Most likely, you're unwilling to listen to other viewpoints and just want to hear yourself talk on the internet. Have fun with that. I'm not inclined to play along.
      - Volpe 13y ago
        I think you are projecting here. And attempting a moral high ground. Where was I wrong exactly? Please point it out, then you can return to your high ground. The argument remains the same, I drew a parallel with a current situation to highlight how ridiculous it was to blame the Taliban for 9/11 (as they had NOTHING to do with it). Just as Russia had nothing to do with Snowden (except that he's there).

madaxe 13y ago

Radical conservatives? Tin-foil hat aside, it strikes me as oddly coincidental that the folks who use drones these days to kill around the planet with impunity are the same folks who had several allegedly drone controlled airliners carry out an attack, garnering public support for several illegal wars. Just saying, it's all mightily convenient. As ever. As to foreign bombers... So? Most Americans agree drone strikes are a good thing, so surely they'd still be a good thing when they start happening on US soil?

regal 13y ago
I like how you say "tin-foil hat aside", then go on to state with what seems to be complete seriousness that 9/11 was carried out by the U.S. against the U.S. using drone-controlled passenger airplanes.
- madaxe 13y ago
  And? You thought the 9/11 commission report was good and conclusive? WTC7 just "imploded" due to "natural causes"? And of course destroying all the evidence pronto was the best way to investigate the crime? I don't think a single word that comes out of the US (and UK) gov't is truthful. Why would they be truthful about 9/11?
- LekkoscPiwa 13y ago
  No, but it was convenient in the same way the Reichstag fire was convenient.
  - madaxe 13y ago
    No no, it was filthy commies that started the reichstag fire, right?
    - LekkoscPiwa 13y ago
      making it even more convenient. The Nurimberg Laws could be passed thanks to this event. Almost as convenient as 9/11 so that the Patrot Act could be passed.