10 ms·

> I do not look forward to the day when our own brutality is visited upon us. Many people around the world would say that one of those days was September 11, 2

by veidr 13y ago

> I do not look forward to the day when our own brutality is visited upon us. Many people around the world would say that one of those days was September 11, 2001.

downandout 13y ago
9/11 was a single horrific event carried out by a small number of radicals. I don't think it holds a candle by any metric to the lives lost and damage done in an actual government-run war scenario. We don't yet have foreign bombers blowing up cafes on a regular basis because somebody on their hit list was inside, but because of our actions, we someday might.
- angersock 13y ago
  And on that afternoon, there will be rage upon the twitters, and that evening, the news. And on the following day, we'll bomb the everliving christ out of the people we think are responsible, and on some day hence, we will be bombed in response. The wheel turns--might as well get into the drone and bomb business. :(
  - Volpe 13y ago
    Actually I think you'll bomb a bunch of other random people (Iraq, Afghanistan), and continue to treat the responsible "country" (Saudi Arabia) as an ally and friend. Just before people rewrite history, afganistan and iraq governments had nothing to do with 9/11.
    - philwelch 13y ago
      Unless you're a kook, the people responsible for 9/11 were a group whose interests include overthrowing the Saudi government. The erstwhile Afghan "government", the Taliban, harbored them.
      - lostlogin 13y ago
        Yes, but don't be forgetting that the Taliban are a rebranded mujahideen. This crowd were US allies (or were they pawns?). Armed and trained.
        briandon 13y ago
        And Italy was one of the Allies during WW1 before allying itself with Germany in WW2. During the fight against Germany, Austria-Hungary, and the Ottoman Empire, other nations provided assistance to Italy. Individuals jumped into the fray too. Hemingway, for example, was a volunteer ambulance driver in Italy in WW1. Beating the USA over the head post-911 with the club of having assisted anti-Soviet fighters in the 1970s and 1980s makes as much sense as castigating Italy's WW1-era allies and people like Hemingway in the late 1930s for having come to Italy's aid twenty years earlier.
        lostlogin 13y ago
        The US leaders who started these wars had no issue making comparisons to WW2 and claiming Bush compared to Churchill. Words such as 'Crusade' were used. Good versus Evil. Crappy comparisons have been a hallmark of the campaigns. What I said was, to my knowledge, fact. I was attempting to point out that friends can become enemies, so a bit of tact and care is obviously a good idea. And of course, claiming you're on a crusade and fighting evil is just plain BS. The US deserves castigation for its role in these conflicts, it has acted appallingly, as have others. My own country, New Zealand, has troops in Afghanistan and have been involved in some controversy. The only reason I can think of for this deployment is to brown nose a few so-called allies. Making the world safer one botch job, torture and killing at a time. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1470658/Mayor-of-America-compares-Bush-to-Churchill.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1... http://www.seattlepi.com/news/article/Bush-s-use-of-word-crusade-a-red-flag-1066045.php http://www.seattlepi.com/news/article/Bush-s-use-of-word-cru... http://www.3news.co.nz/Govt-cant-rule-out-SAS-link-in-Afghan-prisoner-torture/tabid/419/articleID/229127/Default.aspx http://www.3news.co.nz/Govt-cant-rule-out-SAS-link-in-Afghan...
        13y ago
- madaxe 13y ago
  Radical conservatives? Tin-foil hat aside, it strikes me as oddly coincidental that the folks who use drones these days to kill around the planet with impunity are the same folks who had several allegedly drone controlled airliners carry out an attack, garnering public support for several illegal wars. Just saying, it's all mightily convenient. As ever. As to foreign bombers... So? Most Americans agree drone strikes are a good thing, so surely they'd still be a good thing when they start happening on US soil?
  - regal 13y ago
    I like how you say "tin-foil hat aside", then go on to state with what seems to be complete seriousness that 9/11 was carried out by the U.S. against the U.S. using drone-controlled passenger airplanes.
    - madaxe 13y ago
      And? You thought the 9/11 commission report was good and conclusive? WTC7 just "imploded" due to "natural causes"? And of course destroying all the evidence pronto was the best way to investigate the crime? I don't think a single word that comes out of the US (and UK) gov't is truthful. Why would they be truthful about 9/11?
    - LekkoscPiwa 13y ago
      No, but it was convenient in the same way the Reichstag fire was convenient.
      - madaxe 13y ago
        No no, it was filthy commies that started the reichstag fire, right?
        LekkoscPiwa 13y ago
        making it even more convenient. The Nurimberg Laws could be passed thanks to this event. Almost as convenient as 9/11 so that the Patrot Act could be passed.
sneak 13y ago
9/11 wasn't carried out by foreigners. There's no motive. Means, motive, and opportunity: Who'd consider 3000 dead Americans a reasonable price to pay for carte blanche to make a pushbutton military coup possible in this country? The US already controls, coerces, or mutually cooperates with a large number of other sovereign states (as we've seen with this whole Snowden airspace thing, or the global surveillance networks, et c). Such an action would place a person or group that was able to exert leverage over the majority of US persons high in the running for "able to control the majority of humans on Earth". Not a bad prize, that.
- tsotha 13y ago
  Please go somewhere else and take your tinfoil hat with you.
  - PavlovsCat 13y ago
    Explain WTC7. (I don't even speculate "who did what, exactly" -- but that this thing is fishy as fuck, and has been from day one, is undeniable. You can cover your ears and scream tinfoil all you want, but that doesn't answer the gaping questions. Apply Occam's razor, how about that? The possibility that the laws of physics were suspended that day is very slim, even more slim than aliens using lizards to convince mice to hypnotize humans to do it. Logic!)
    - ferdo 13y ago
      What's to explain about a controlled demolition? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv7BImVvEyk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv7BImVvEyk
      - PavlovsCat 13y ago
        or: http://wtc7.net/ http://wtc7.net/ Fires have never before or since destroyed a steel skyscraper. The team that investigated the collapse were kept away from the crime scene. By the time they published their inconclusive report in May, 2002, the evidence had been destroyed. Is any of the above untrue? Why did the government rapidly recycle the steel from the largest and most mysterious engineering failure in world histor? [..] ? Why indeed? That's just scraping the surface, and attacking the ones who ask the questions you kinda should ask yourself, is just being silly. It's been nearly 12 years now, there is no excuse anymore, the shock wore off; "you" accepted Gitmo, so you can deal with this. Wo/man up.

by veidr 13y ago

> I do not look forward to the day when our own brutality is visited upon us. Many people around the world would say that one of those days was September 11, 2001.

downandout 13y ago

9/11 was a single horrific event carried out by a small number of radicals. I don't think it holds a candle by any metric to the lives lost and damage done in an actual government-run war scenario. We don't yet have foreign bombers blowing up cafes on a regular basis because somebody on their hit list was inside, but because of our actions, we someday might.

angersock 13y ago
And on that afternoon, there will be rage upon the twitters, and that evening, the news. And on the following day, we'll bomb the everliving christ out of the people we think are responsible, and on some day hence, we will be bombed in response. The wheel turns--might as well get into the drone and bomb business. :(
- Volpe 13y ago
  Actually I think you'll bomb a bunch of other random people (Iraq, Afghanistan), and continue to treat the responsible "country" (Saudi Arabia) as an ally and friend. Just before people rewrite history, afganistan and iraq governments had nothing to do with 9/11.
  - philwelch 13y ago
    Unless you're a kook, the people responsible for 9/11 were a group whose interests include overthrowing the Saudi government. The erstwhile Afghan "government", the Taliban, harbored them.
    - lostlogin 13y ago
      Yes, but don't be forgetting that the Taliban are a rebranded mujahideen. This crowd were US allies (or were they pawns?). Armed and trained.
      - briandon 13y ago
        And Italy was one of the Allies during WW1 before allying itself with Germany in WW2. During the fight against Germany, Austria-Hungary, and the Ottoman Empire, other nations provided assistance to Italy. Individuals jumped into the fray too. Hemingway, for example, was a volunteer ambulance driver in Italy in WW1. Beating the USA over the head post-911 with the club of having assisted anti-Soviet fighters in the 1970s and 1980s makes as much sense as castigating Italy's WW1-era allies and people like Hemingway in the late 1930s for having come to Italy's aid twenty years earlier.
        lostlogin 13y ago
        The US leaders who started these wars had no issue making comparisons to WW2 and claiming Bush compared to Churchill. Words such as 'Crusade' were used. Good versus Evil. Crappy comparisons have been a hallmark of the campaigns. What I said was, to my knowledge, fact. I was attempting to point out that friends can become enemies, so a bit of tact and care is obviously a good idea. And of course, claiming you're on a crusade and fighting evil is just plain BS. The US deserves castigation for its role in these conflicts, it has acted appallingly, as have others. My own country, New Zealand, has troops in Afghanistan and have been involved in some controversy. The only reason I can think of for this deployment is to brown nose a few so-called allies. Making the world safer one botch job, torture and killing at a time. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1470658/Mayor-of-America-compares-Bush-to-Churchill.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1... http://www.seattlepi.com/news/article/Bush-s-use-of-word-crusade-a-red-flag-1066045.php http://www.seattlepi.com/news/article/Bush-s-use-of-word-cru... http://www.3news.co.nz/Govt-cant-rule-out-SAS-link-in-Afghan-prisoner-torture/tabid/419/articleID/229127/Default.aspx http://www.3news.co.nz/Govt-cant-rule-out-SAS-link-in-Afghan...
      - 13y ago
madaxe 13y ago
Radical conservatives? Tin-foil hat aside, it strikes me as oddly coincidental that the folks who use drones these days to kill around the planet with impunity are the same folks who had several allegedly drone controlled airliners carry out an attack, garnering public support for several illegal wars. Just saying, it's all mightily convenient. As ever. As to foreign bombers... So? Most Americans agree drone strikes are a good thing, so surely they'd still be a good thing when they start happening on US soil?
- regal 13y ago
  I like how you say "tin-foil hat aside", then go on to state with what seems to be complete seriousness that 9/11 was carried out by the U.S. against the U.S. using drone-controlled passenger airplanes.
  - madaxe 13y ago
    And? You thought the 9/11 commission report was good and conclusive? WTC7 just "imploded" due to "natural causes"? And of course destroying all the evidence pronto was the best way to investigate the crime? I don't think a single word that comes out of the US (and UK) gov't is truthful. Why would they be truthful about 9/11?
  - LekkoscPiwa 13y ago
    No, but it was convenient in the same way the Reichstag fire was convenient.
    - madaxe 13y ago
      No no, it was filthy commies that started the reichstag fire, right?
      - LekkoscPiwa 13y ago
        making it even more convenient. The Nurimberg Laws could be passed thanks to this event. Almost as convenient as 9/11 so that the Patrot Act could be passed.

sneak 13y ago

9/11 wasn't carried out by foreigners. There's no motive. Means, motive, and opportunity: Who'd consider 3000 dead Americans a reasonable price to pay for carte blanche to make a pushbutton military coup possible in this country? The US already controls, coerces, or mutually cooperates with a large number of other sovereign states (as we've seen with this whole Snowden airspace thing, or the global surveillance networks, et c). Such an action would place a person or group that was able to exert leverage over the majority of US persons high in the running for "able to control the majority of humans on Earth". Not a bad prize, that.

tsotha 13y ago
Please go somewhere else and take your tinfoil hat with you.
- PavlovsCat 13y ago
  Explain WTC7. (I don't even speculate "who did what, exactly" -- but that this thing is fishy as fuck, and has been from day one, is undeniable. You can cover your ears and scream tinfoil all you want, but that doesn't answer the gaping questions. Apply Occam's razor, how about that? The possibility that the laws of physics were suspended that day is very slim, even more slim than aliens using lizards to convince mice to hypnotize humans to do it. Logic!)
  - ferdo 13y ago
    What's to explain about a controlled demolition? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv7BImVvEyk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv7BImVvEyk
    - PavlovsCat 13y ago
      or: http://wtc7.net/ http://wtc7.net/ Fires have never before or since destroyed a steel skyscraper. The team that investigated the collapse were kept away from the crime scene. By the time they published their inconclusive report in May, 2002, the evidence had been destroyed. Is any of the above untrue? Why did the government rapidly recycle the steel from the largest and most mysterious engineering failure in world histor? [..] ? Why indeed? That's just scraping the surface, and attacking the ones who ask the questions you kinda should ask yourself, is just being silly. It's been nearly 12 years now, there is no excuse anymore, the shock wore off; "you" accepted Gitmo, so you can deal with this. Wo/man up.