10 ms·

Why Your Dog Can Get Vaccinated Against Lyme Disease And You Can’t

167 points by joshfraser 13y ago

BorgHunter 13y ago
The New York Times wrote an article about the Lyme disease vaccine in 1999. It gives a bit of a different perspective. The long and short of it is, it seemed too new and too much of a pain, and a lot of people didn't see a benefit due to the presence of other tick-borne diseases that necessitated the same checks for ticks even with the vaccine. http://www.nytimes.com/1999/06/13/nyregion/lukewarm-response-to-new-lyme-vaccine.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm http://www.nytimes.com/1999/06/13/nyregion/lukewarm-response...
- _delirium 13y ago
  An interesting feature of lyme disease specifically (unlike some other tick-borne diseases) is that tick checks are very effective, because it doesn't migrate from the tick to the human bloodstream in sufficient quantities to produce infection until around 36-48 hours after attachment. (Source: http://www.cdc.gov/lyme/transmission/ http://www.cdc.gov/lyme/transmission/)
  - tocomment 13y ago
    Hmm, so I wonder if short term tick exposure actually functions as a rudimentary vaccine then? It would expose your immune system to the bacteria in very small quantities?
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
WillyF 13y ago
My Dad was part of the Lyme Disease vaccine trials. He ended up receiving the placebo, but was then given the option to get the actual vaccine and he took it. If I remember correctly, it didn't last that long, so it has almost certainly worn off by now.
newbie12 13y ago
There are actually clinical trials underway for a new Lyme vaccine: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/260471.php http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/260471.php The core problem with the original vaccine is that 80% effectiveness is terrible-- that's not sufficient, you still need to take all normal precautions. The second problem is that many people at high risk for Lyme may already have it, or have other tick-borne diseases that are difficult to diagnose and can be chronic-- that probably explains the "side effects" problem. Lyme is at the center of a number of nasty bacteria and parasites that you can get from a deer tick. The most effective thing we can do is reduce deer populations.
- randomchars 13y ago
  Deer ticks are not the only kind of ticks.
  - newbie12 13y ago
    They are the ticks that carry Lyme.
    - randomchars 13y ago
      Not the only ones. There are no deer ticks in Europe, yet we still have Lyme disease.
      - _delirium 13y ago
        Due to Europe's lower concentration of wild animals and higher concentration of farm animals, the role of deer for the north-American deer tick seems to be played primarily by sheep and cattle for the European Ixodes ricinus. I suppose one way of fighting it analogously might be to reduce populations of sheep and cattle, but that seems likely to run into opposition.
        Ergomane 13y ago
        While it is called the 'sheep tick' around here, Ixodes ricinus has a number of hosts, including mice, deer and birds (eg black birds, robins) that contribute to the spread and maintenance of the species in forests and woodlands. Roe deer often carry all tick stages (larvae, nymphs and adults).
evincarofautumn 13y ago
When she was in high school, my girlfriend contracted Lyme disease unknowingly. By a mad stroke of luck, it was soon killed by a round of antibiotics for an unrelated illness. However, she still suffers from nightly joint pain; having seen the suffering (relatively minor, thank goodness) brought on by such a simple thing to prevent, I would like nothing more than to see a human vaccine become widespread.
- newbie12 13y ago
  A friend of mine in college suffered terribly from Lyme in the early 1990s, when the disease wasn't as readily diagnosed and treatment protocols weren't established. He lost 100 pounds and dropped out of school. Lyme today is the most common infectious disease in New England.
  - justin66 13y ago
    People can suffer terribly from it NOW. It sucks.
  - 616c 13y ago
    I knew someone similarly in my youth, when he was between 10 and 13 years old. He would walk around with a gas nebulizer that would give him the necessary meds intravenously, and get the stint in properly I was told by him and his mother was an experience filled with pain, screaming, and terror. Even with a friend who mostly able to live a normal life, the pain difficulty of the disease and treatment literally scared me for years after.
  - mkopinsky 13y ago
    > most common infectious disease in New England More common than flu, or the common cold? Really? Perhaps you need to add a modifier such as "chronic" to your statement?
- mcv 13y ago
  I always thought the fear of Lyme was exaggerated (though I'd learned to remove ticks carefully). But this spring, a niece got a really bad case of Lyme. Spent a long time in the hospital, and is still recovering. I don't know all the medical details, but I suspect she'll have to learn to live with aching joints for the rest of her life, which is hopefully a long time; she's 8.
fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
>"But then opponents spoke out: self-described ‘vaccine victims’ — perhaps similar to people today who claim the MMR vaccine causes autism. Back then, they said that the Lyme vaccine gave them arthritis." Okay, vaccines can harm people. It's a fact, get over it, now let's see an honest discussion with more facts and less name-calling. >" There were a number of East Coast lawyers who started putting together class-action lawsuits." So? Vaccine manufacturers are immune from lawsuit. Cases are tried in vaccine court[1]. Awards are paid by the gov't. > "many drug companies say not they’re not interested in working on one." There is no excuse for this. If we have to suffer the perversion of market forces seen in our vaccine industry, there should be no excuses for companies who don't want to produce an existing product merely because it isn't profitable enough. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_court https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_court
- nknighthb 13y ago
  As far as I know, the immunity only applies for the vaccines listed on the Vaccine Injury Table, which is comprised mostly or entirely of vaccines specifically recommended by the CDC for children. The lyme vaccine, like many other vaccines, isn't on the VIT.
- some_guy_there 13y ago
  FDA did not clear the vaccine for children, so from this one probably isn't on the list of covered vaccine. The entire vaccine court system was established so that drug companies can make vaccines with minimum headaches. Why would any company produce vaccine when there are other profitable things to make?
  - fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
    >Why would any company produce vaccine when there are other profitable things to make? They wouldn't. But if my gov't is going to give out immunity that benefits a particular industry, then I want my gov't to also demand/subsidize products like Lyme vaccines from that industry.
    - 13y ago
fenugreek 13y ago
Does the dog vaccine work in humans?
- Qantourisc 13y ago
  I'm no medical expert (of any sort), but my gut feeling says yes. Why? You are trying to learn your immune system to fight of something. This is usually learned by adding a dead(ish) infection. Possible problems are: A) Not being tuned to humans. B) The method of immunising doesn't work for humans. C) The lymes aren't dead enough for humans and you get lymes deases. Ow: and ask a fair, honest, open-minded and well educated doctor who will do the research on it.
- MSexton 13y ago
  I knew a veterinarian who gave herself the vaccine. She claimed to have done research before doing so, so I think the answer is yes.
pathy 13y ago
I truly wish that a lyme disease vaccine gets released in the near future. I got it twice (!) within two years when I was younger and boy was I sick. At least the first time. It is not fun at all, though I seem have managed without any permanent problems as far as I know. I did not get sick until something like 4 months after getting bitten, which lead in turn lead to the diagnosis being delayed a lot. Not fun at all.
lnanek2 13y ago
As someone from a high Lyme area, this doesn't really matter, because any doctor I've met will just give you an acne antibiotic prescription to prevent Lyme if you ask.
tocomment 13y ago
Has anyone tried making a tick trap? I read once that you could build something simple with dry ice on a piece of cardboard surrounding by double sided tape. The ticks are attracted to the CO2 and get stuck on the tape. I wonder why there are no simple commercial products like that? Other ideas I've had is a company that runs dogs or horses around your property for a few days hopefully to pick up all the ticks. They obviously then carefully remove the ticks from the animals.
- digitalsushi 13y ago
  I read that ticks detect the ground shaking, and hope that means an animal will walk by soon, and they climb onto a stalk of grass/branch and put their legs out for a free ride. I would like to know if the CO2 trick is true.
- DennisP 13y ago
  Along those lines, someone's making a tick-killing robot: http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-07-10/local/40575624_1_ticks-lyme-disease-carbon-dioxide http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-07-10/local/40575624...
tocomment 13y ago
From my personal experience places I go will either have lots of ticks or none. The best explanatory variable I can come up with is the deer to human ratio. In places with a lot of deer but few humans the ticks are all just waiting around to bite people that come by. But I'm guessing in places with lots of people, other people have already come by and "used up the tick supply".
- gaustin 13y ago
  Climate plays a big role too. Ticks have a pretty narrow band where they are active. We have ticks in my area for a couple of weeks in the damp, cool spring. After that it's too dry and hot.
balqan 13y ago
Those that oppose the vaccine are not forced to get it. They should stop messing with those that want it.
- fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
  The reason for the suit was that SmithKline allegedly knew that 30% of people were predisposed to having an incurable adverse reaction, and failed to disclose or warn of that fact after it became known, and that SmithKline also failed to disclose the fact that (frequent) periodic boosters were required to maintain immunity. http://www3.jsonline.com/bym/news/ap/jul03/ap-lyme-vaccine-se071003.asp http://www3.jsonline.com/bym/news/ap/jul03/ap-lyme-vaccine-s...
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
cantankerous 13y ago
The ticks are so terrible this year in Missouri. It's not clear if we have proper Lyme disease here. They call it "Lyme-like" diseases. It's relatively uncommon, still, I think. Lyme disease hasn't been isolated here in a replicated study. I sure am glad of this. I'd never go in the woods (brambles) if that were the case. I'm also glad you can't get any diseases from the chiggers. Damn those chiggers.
tieTYT 13y ago
Off topic, I know: This site is driving me nuts because the up/down arrows don't scroll. Anyone else having this issue?

167 points by joshfraser 13y ago

The New York Times wrote an article about the Lyme disease vaccine in 1999. It gives a bit of a different perspective. The long and short of it is, it seemed too new and too much of a pain, and a lot of people didn't see a benefit due to the presence of other tick-borne diseases that necessitated the same checks for ticks even with the vaccine. http://www.nytimes.com/1999/06/13/nyregion/lukewarm-response-to-new-lyme-vaccine.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm http://www.nytimes.com/1999/06/13/nyregion/lukewarm-response...

_delirium 13y ago
An interesting feature of lyme disease specifically (unlike some other tick-borne diseases) is that tick checks are very effective, because it doesn't migrate from the tick to the human bloodstream in sufficient quantities to produce infection until around 36-48 hours after attachment. (Source: http://www.cdc.gov/lyme/transmission/ http://www.cdc.gov/lyme/transmission/)
- tocomment 13y ago
  Hmm, so I wonder if short term tick exposure actually functions as a rudimentary vaccine then? It would expose your immune system to the bacteria in very small quantities?

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

WillyF 13y ago

My Dad was part of the Lyme Disease vaccine trials. He ended up receiving the placebo, but was then given the option to get the actual vaccine and he took it. If I remember correctly, it didn't last that long, so it has almost certainly worn off by now.

newbie12 13y ago

There are actually clinical trials underway for a new Lyme vaccine: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/260471.php http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/260471.php The core problem with the original vaccine is that 80% effectiveness is terrible-- that's not sufficient, you still need to take all normal precautions. The second problem is that many people at high risk for Lyme may already have it, or have other tick-borne diseases that are difficult to diagnose and can be chronic-- that probably explains the "side effects" problem. Lyme is at the center of a number of nasty bacteria and parasites that you can get from a deer tick. The most effective thing we can do is reduce deer populations.

randomchars 13y ago
Deer ticks are not the only kind of ticks.
- newbie12 13y ago
  They are the ticks that carry Lyme.
  - randomchars 13y ago
    Not the only ones. There are no deer ticks in Europe, yet we still have Lyme disease.
    - _delirium 13y ago
      Due to Europe's lower concentration of wild animals and higher concentration of farm animals, the role of deer for the north-American deer tick seems to be played primarily by sheep and cattle for the European Ixodes ricinus. I suppose one way of fighting it analogously might be to reduce populations of sheep and cattle, but that seems likely to run into opposition.
      - Ergomane 13y ago
        While it is called the 'sheep tick' around here, Ixodes ricinus has a number of hosts, including mice, deer and birds (eg black birds, robins) that contribute to the spread and maintenance of the species in forests and woodlands. Roe deer often carry all tick stages (larvae, nymphs and adults).

evincarofautumn 13y ago

When she was in high school, my girlfriend contracted Lyme disease unknowingly. By a mad stroke of luck, it was soon killed by a round of antibiotics for an unrelated illness. However, she still suffers from nightly joint pain; having seen the suffering (relatively minor, thank goodness) brought on by such a simple thing to prevent, I would like nothing more than to see a human vaccine become widespread.

newbie12 13y ago
A friend of mine in college suffered terribly from Lyme in the early 1990s, when the disease wasn't as readily diagnosed and treatment protocols weren't established. He lost 100 pounds and dropped out of school. Lyme today is the most common infectious disease in New England.
- justin66 13y ago
  People can suffer terribly from it NOW. It sucks.
- 616c 13y ago
  I knew someone similarly in my youth, when he was between 10 and 13 years old. He would walk around with a gas nebulizer that would give him the necessary meds intravenously, and get the stint in properly I was told by him and his mother was an experience filled with pain, screaming, and terror. Even with a friend who mostly able to live a normal life, the pain difficulty of the disease and treatment literally scared me for years after.
- mkopinsky 13y ago
  > most common infectious disease in New England More common than flu, or the common cold? Really? Perhaps you need to add a modifier such as "chronic" to your statement?
mcv 13y ago
I always thought the fear of Lyme was exaggerated (though I'd learned to remove ticks carefully). But this spring, a niece got a really bad case of Lyme. Spent a long time in the hospital, and is still recovering. I don't know all the medical details, but I suspect she'll have to learn to live with aching joints for the rest of her life, which is hopefully a long time; she's 8.

fnordfnordfnord 13y ago

>"But then opponents spoke out: self-described ‘vaccine victims’ — perhaps similar to people today who claim the MMR vaccine causes autism. Back then, they said that the Lyme vaccine gave them arthritis." Okay, vaccines can harm people. It's a fact, get over it, now let's see an honest discussion with more facts and less name-calling. >" There were a number of East Coast lawyers who started putting together class-action lawsuits." So? Vaccine manufacturers are immune from lawsuit. Cases are tried in vaccine court[1]. Awards are paid by the gov't. > "many drug companies say not they’re not interested in working on one." There is no excuse for this. If we have to suffer the perversion of market forces seen in our vaccine industry, there should be no excuses for companies who don't want to produce an existing product merely because it isn't profitable enough. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_court https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_court

nknighthb 13y ago
As far as I know, the immunity only applies for the vaccines listed on the Vaccine Injury Table, which is comprised mostly or entirely of vaccines specifically recommended by the CDC for children. The lyme vaccine, like many other vaccines, isn't on the VIT.
some_guy_there 13y ago
FDA did not clear the vaccine for children, so from this one probably isn't on the list of covered vaccine. The entire vaccine court system was established so that drug companies can make vaccines with minimum headaches. Why would any company produce vaccine when there are other profitable things to make?
- fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
  >Why would any company produce vaccine when there are other profitable things to make? They wouldn't. But if my gov't is going to give out immunity that benefits a particular industry, then I want my gov't to also demand/subsidize products like Lyme vaccines from that industry.
  - 13y ago

fenugreek 13y ago

Does the dog vaccine work in humans?

Qantourisc 13y ago
I'm no medical expert (of any sort), but my gut feeling says yes. Why? You are trying to learn your immune system to fight of something. This is usually learned by adding a dead(ish) infection. Possible problems are: A) Not being tuned to humans. B) The method of immunising doesn't work for humans. C) The lymes aren't dead enough for humans and you get lymes deases. Ow: and ask a fair, honest, open-minded and well educated doctor who will do the research on it.
MSexton 13y ago
I knew a veterinarian who gave herself the vaccine. She claimed to have done research before doing so, so I think the answer is yes.

pathy 13y ago

I truly wish that a lyme disease vaccine gets released in the near future. I got it twice (!) within two years when I was younger and boy was I sick. At least the first time. It is not fun at all, though I seem have managed without any permanent problems as far as I know. I did not get sick until something like 4 months after getting bitten, which lead in turn lead to the diagnosis being delayed a lot. Not fun at all.

lnanek2 13y ago

As someone from a high Lyme area, this doesn't really matter, because any doctor I've met will just give you an acne antibiotic prescription to prevent Lyme if you ask.

tocomment 13y ago

Has anyone tried making a tick trap? I read once that you could build something simple with dry ice on a piece of cardboard surrounding by double sided tape. The ticks are attracted to the CO2 and get stuck on the tape. I wonder why there are no simple commercial products like that? Other ideas I've had is a company that runs dogs or horses around your property for a few days hopefully to pick up all the ticks. They obviously then carefully remove the ticks from the animals.

digitalsushi 13y ago
I read that ticks detect the ground shaking, and hope that means an animal will walk by soon, and they climb onto a stalk of grass/branch and put their legs out for a free ride. I would like to know if the CO2 trick is true.
DennisP 13y ago
Along those lines, someone's making a tick-killing robot: http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-07-10/local/40575624_1_ticks-lyme-disease-carbon-dioxide http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-07-10/local/40575624...

tocomment 13y ago

From my personal experience places I go will either have lots of ticks or none. The best explanatory variable I can come up with is the deer to human ratio. In places with a lot of deer but few humans the ticks are all just waiting around to bite people that come by. But I'm guessing in places with lots of people, other people have already come by and "used up the tick supply".

gaustin 13y ago
Climate plays a big role too. Ticks have a pretty narrow band where they are active. We have ticks in my area for a couple of weeks in the damp, cool spring. After that it's too dry and hot.

balqan 13y ago

Those that oppose the vaccine are not forced to get it. They should stop messing with those that want it.

fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
The reason for the suit was that SmithKline allegedly knew that 30% of people were predisposed to having an incurable adverse reaction, and failed to disclose or warn of that fact after it became known, and that SmithKline also failed to disclose the fact that (frequent) periodic boosters were required to maintain immunity. http://www3.jsonline.com/bym/news/ap/jul03/ap-lyme-vaccine-se071003.asp http://www3.jsonline.com/bym/news/ap/jul03/ap-lyme-vaccine-s...

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

cantankerous 13y ago

The ticks are so terrible this year in Missouri. It's not clear if we have proper Lyme disease here. They call it "Lyme-like" diseases. It's relatively uncommon, still, I think. Lyme disease hasn't been isolated here in a replicated study. I sure am glad of this. I'd never go in the woods (brambles) if that were the case. I'm also glad you can't get any diseases from the chiggers. Damn those chiggers.

tieTYT 13y ago

Off topic, I know: This site is driving me nuts because the up/down arrows don't scroll. Anyone else having this issue?