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"Not sure how this could possibly be helpful in an investigation if everyone is a suspect." b/c it has nothing to do with an investigation...now blackmail and

"Not sure how this could possibly be helpful in an investigation if everyone is a suspect." b/c it has nothing to do with an investigation...now blackmail and extortion??? That's another story.

rayiner 13y ago
[citation needed] for the blackmail and extortion. It's inane to be so quick to jump from mere ability to do something bad to intent to do something bad.
- Terretta 13y ago
  The FBI letter blackmailing MLK to kill himself: http://www.lettersofnote.com/2012/01/king-like-all-frauds-your-end-is.html http://www.lettersofnote.com/2012/01/king-like-all-frauds-yo... Summed up by a history prof: When you teach American history as I do, you get asked about conspiracies a lot. As it happens, I’m skeptical about some of the biggest conspiracy theories out there — unlike nearly all of my students, for instance, I think it’s highly likely that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. But I’m not one to ridicule such theories either, and I find the smug dismissal with which they’re so often greeted deeply obnoxious. Because forty-seven years ago one of America’s highest ranking law enforcement agents launched a secret campaign intended to blackmail the country’s most prominent civil rights activist into committing suicide. That’s not a theory, it’s a fact. And once you know that, it gets a lot harder to dismiss other people’s stories of shadowy government goings-on. -- http://studentactivism.net/2012/01/15/the-fbis-attempt-to-blackmail-martin-luther-king-into-suicide/ http://studentactivism.net/2012/01/15/the-fbis-attempt-to-bl...
  - tptacek 13y ago
    Comparing the FBI of J. Edgar Hoover to the DoJ's FBI of 2013 is like comparing the Long Island State Park Commission of Robert Moses to the New York State Office of Parks & Recreation of 2013. Hoover's FBI was a personal fiefdom accountable to nobody, not even the President. Also, odious as the letter is, it's not exactly forceful. If MLK's civil rights struggle had been shifted forward in time today and he had posted the "I Have A Dream" speech directly to Youtube, he'd have found far worse.
    - jlgreco 13y ago
      "That example of obscene overreach and abuse of a government agency does not count because it is nothing more than an example of obscene overreach and abuse of a government agency."
      - rayiner 13y ago
        I think the argument is that you need more justification to claim that a government agency is engaging in blackmail and extortion than "a once in a century character in a different government agency 50 years ago at the height of a national paranoia not seen since that time sent someone a nasty letter."
        jlgreco 13y ago
        The fear is that they are creating tools that would give Hoover an orgasm on the spot, and we don't know that there isn't another Hoover. We don't need concrete proof of current wrong-doing in order to take lessons from history. That is the value of history.
        rayiner 13y ago
        I agree with you, but I was responding to the claim: "b/c it has nothing to do with an investigation...now blackmail and extortion???" I read that as something stronger than "we need to take lessons from history." I think the statement goes further than that to claim that the NSA's purported justifications are entirely pretense and the real motivation is blackmail and extortion. That I think requires stronger proof than "someone sometime did something."
      - tptacek 13y ago
        Are you afraid of the New York State Parks & Rec department? Your logic suggests you should be. Have you read Caro's _Power Broker_? If not, you should!
        jlgreco 13y ago
- brown9-2 13y ago
  This is a good summation of NSA discussion on HN lately: someone asking for a citation gets downvoted. Good job guys!
- unclebucknasty 13y ago
  No. It's inane to create conditions under which "mere ability" is so powerful and accessible, then rely on hope and faith that there are no bad actors with "intent" to "do something [evil]". It's not as if we haven't been there before. OTOH, it's perfectly reasonable to be concerned about the capabilities that we give our government. That is exactly what distinguishes various forms of government and exactly why we have a Constitution that defines ours as it does.

"Not sure how this could possibly be helpful in an investigation if everyone is a suspect." b/c it has nothing to do with an investigation...now blackmail and extortion??? That's another story.

rayiner 13y ago

[citation needed] for the blackmail and extortion. It's inane to be so quick to jump from mere ability to do something bad to intent to do something bad.

Terretta 13y ago
The FBI letter blackmailing MLK to kill himself: http://www.lettersofnote.com/2012/01/king-like-all-frauds-your-end-is.html http://www.lettersofnote.com/2012/01/king-like-all-frauds-yo... Summed up by a history prof: When you teach American history as I do, you get asked about conspiracies a lot. As it happens, I’m skeptical about some of the biggest conspiracy theories out there — unlike nearly all of my students, for instance, I think it’s highly likely that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. But I’m not one to ridicule such theories either, and I find the smug dismissal with which they’re so often greeted deeply obnoxious. Because forty-seven years ago one of America’s highest ranking law enforcement agents launched a secret campaign intended to blackmail the country’s most prominent civil rights activist into committing suicide. That’s not a theory, it’s a fact. And once you know that, it gets a lot harder to dismiss other people’s stories of shadowy government goings-on. -- http://studentactivism.net/2012/01/15/the-fbis-attempt-to-blackmail-martin-luther-king-into-suicide/ http://studentactivism.net/2012/01/15/the-fbis-attempt-to-bl...
- tptacek 13y ago
  Comparing the FBI of J. Edgar Hoover to the DoJ's FBI of 2013 is like comparing the Long Island State Park Commission of Robert Moses to the New York State Office of Parks & Recreation of 2013. Hoover's FBI was a personal fiefdom accountable to nobody, not even the President. Also, odious as the letter is, it's not exactly forceful. If MLK's civil rights struggle had been shifted forward in time today and he had posted the "I Have A Dream" speech directly to Youtube, he'd have found far worse.
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    "That example of obscene overreach and abuse of a government agency does not count because it is nothing more than an example of obscene overreach and abuse of a government agency."
    - rayiner 13y ago
      I think the argument is that you need more justification to claim that a government agency is engaging in blackmail and extortion than "a once in a century character in a different government agency 50 years ago at the height of a national paranoia not seen since that time sent someone a nasty letter."
      - jlgreco 13y ago
        The fear is that they are creating tools that would give Hoover an orgasm on the spot, and we don't know that there isn't another Hoover. We don't need concrete proof of current wrong-doing in order to take lessons from history. That is the value of history.
        rayiner 13y ago
        I agree with you, but I was responding to the claim: "b/c it has nothing to do with an investigation...now blackmail and extortion???" I read that as something stronger than "we need to take lessons from history." I think the statement goes further than that to claim that the NSA's purported justifications are entirely pretense and the real motivation is blackmail and extortion. That I think requires stronger proof than "someone sometime did something."
    - tptacek 13y ago
      Are you afraid of the New York State Parks & Rec department? Your logic suggests you should be. Have you read Caro's _Power Broker_? If not, you should!
      - jlgreco 13y ago
brown9-2 13y ago
This is a good summation of NSA discussion on HN lately: someone asking for a citation gets downvoted. Good job guys!
unclebucknasty 13y ago
No. It's inane to create conditions under which "mere ability" is so powerful and accessible, then rely on hope and faith that there are no bad actors with "intent" to "do something [evil]". It's not as if we haven't been there before. OTOH, it's perfectly reasonable to be concerned about the capabilities that we give our government. That is exactly what distinguishes various forms of government and exactly why we have a Constitution that defines ours as it does.