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It was interesting to follow Patrick's reports few years ago, when they were specific and factual, but attempts to extrapolate from that into a field of full-on

It was interesting to follow Patrick's reports few years ago, when they were specific and factual, but attempts to extrapolate from that into a field of full-on startup mentoring and coaching looks rather strange to put it mildly.

monkeyspaw 13y ago
I can't pretend to speak for Patrick, but I'm guessing that a lot of people asked him for more and more advice. I bet a lot of people wanted to pay him to help them. I don't find it strange at all. Given his success with his first video series, I bet he makes a mint on it. Patrick, if you read this, I very much appreciate your podcasts and articles. I've been working all year to switch from consulting to a product, so your advice is unbelievably well timed. Cheers, Travis
Matti 13y ago
For a certain type of engineer everything involving sales, marketing, discussions about perceived value and getting paid tons of money for something that basically equates to "advice giving"... will seem strange and weird.
- megrimlock 13y ago
  Patrick has put his finger on this concern before, and (I feel) persuasively reframed things to resonate with an engineering mindset: http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/ I've tried to use this same reframing approach when working with people to estimate a software schedule (for complex projects with external promises). Basically, if you can establish that engineering is about tradeoffs -- such as between runtime and memory footprint and code size and small vs large values of N and so on -- then certainly human development time is another resource subject to tradeoffs, where we should identify alternate scenarios and try to aim for the optimal one. Finding ways to talk to people in terms that resonate is tricky -- and often almost a matter of bridging micro-cultures, where subtle tribal affinity signals are needed to gain trust -- so I was impressed that Patrick could break down salary negotiation in a way that didn't seem skeezy to people who just want to build great things and not worry they are getting shafted.
lifeisstillgood 13y ago
I do have some skin in this game, so do take this with a pinch of salt patio11 "followed the dream" - and turns out dreamland is not so perfect after all. Yet enough people are interested in following, and willingly pay for travel guides for the journey. Yes, it was nicer when he had a day job, did a little bit of bingo cards and blogging in the evenings. But even if he does not write it down, or even admit it to himself, at a certain point on the journey even nice people say "I want some of that for myself". I do. And he is taking his path to achieve that. If he succeeds or if he fails, I will learn something from watching. And I will learn something from what he says. What I do with that information is my problem. Sadly I know that it will not be getting paid a lot of money to do fun and interesting coding all day. But that's the journey.
caw 13y ago
I think it's because you're looking at it like this: 1) BCC (And the AB testing, SEO, etc) 2) Appointment Reminder 3) ??? 4) Mentoring / coaching / training The part 3 was consulting, where people paid him money for 4, but presumably there's some NDAs prohibiting write ups the same as BCC. Appointment Reminder has always been a bit more secretive because of Patrick deciding between taking investment or bootstrapping. By not knowing the middle you think it's a huge change, but it's really not. Ramit Seethi you can look at a similar way. How did he jump from a book in 2009 to having several products on what basically amounts to life coaching (dream job, earning money on the side, resume improvements, etc)? In only 3 years since the book he's convinced individuals to drop $2-15k on the promise that he can help them get a better job. To me that seems like a bigger jump than what Patrick has done, but I don't know the middle.
- ericabiz 13y ago
  > How did he jump from a book in 2009 to having several products on what basically amounts to life coaching (dream job, earning money on the side, resume improvements, etc)? The funny thing about Hacker News is you never know who's going to be reading your posts. Hi! I'm the person who convinced Ramit to quit his day job and do this blogging/product thing full time several years ago. I also know Patrick personally and it's an interesting comparison you are making between the two of them. > In only 3 years since the book he's convinced individuals to drop $2-15k on the promise that he can help them get a better job. I understand the skepticism around Ramit's products, especially from the HN crowd. However, knowing Ramit and having been through his products as a reviewer, they are stellar, and the results he gets for his students are meticulously documented. That's not to say they're for everyone--as an entrepreneur myself, I didn't get as much value as a job-seeker would have, and Ramit is probably a couple years away from creating a product geared toward entrepreneurs. Knowing both Ramit and Patrick, the main similarity I see is both have a deeply analytical mind. Neither takes anything for granted, and they're both fanatical testers...not just with marketing copy, but also with their products. Ramit goes to ridiculous levels to make sure his products are bar none the best out there. He spends hundreds of thousands of dollars a year on salaries and hiring the best people so that his products can be the top of their class. Patrick is a bit different, as he got burned on consulting (I'm sure he'll tell that story when he's ready) and went back to focusing on products. He's newer to the info product segment than Ramit, and a little more gun-shy when it comes to aggressive sales. (Ramit uses more aggressive sales tactics because he strongly feels--and has the testimonials to back it up--that he does have the best stuff out there.) Patrick is more cautious, as a geek first and foremost, and someone who built up his list through Hacker News and other geek-oriented websites. In neither case would I hesitate to buy one of their products that was aimed in my direction or endorse them for other folks in their respective target markets. Both Patrick and Ramit operate from a foundation of integrity and putting the best stuff out there. I'm fortunate to count both of them as friends and mentors.

monkeyspaw 13y ago

I can't pretend to speak for Patrick, but I'm guessing that a lot of people asked him for more and more advice. I bet a lot of people wanted to pay him to help them. I don't find it strange at all. Given his success with his first video series, I bet he makes a mint on it. Patrick, if you read this, I very much appreciate your podcasts and articles. I've been working all year to switch from consulting to a product, so your advice is unbelievably well timed. Cheers, Travis

Matti 13y ago

For a certain type of engineer everything involving sales, marketing, discussions about perceived value and getting paid tons of money for something that basically equates to "advice giving"... will seem strange and weird.

megrimlock 13y ago
Patrick has put his finger on this concern before, and (I feel) persuasively reframed things to resonate with an engineering mindset: http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/ I've tried to use this same reframing approach when working with people to estimate a software schedule (for complex projects with external promises). Basically, if you can establish that engineering is about tradeoffs -- such as between runtime and memory footprint and code size and small vs large values of N and so on -- then certainly human development time is another resource subject to tradeoffs, where we should identify alternate scenarios and try to aim for the optimal one. Finding ways to talk to people in terms that resonate is tricky -- and often almost a matter of bridging micro-cultures, where subtle tribal affinity signals are needed to gain trust -- so I was impressed that Patrick could break down salary negotiation in a way that didn't seem skeezy to people who just want to build great things and not worry they are getting shafted.

lifeisstillgood 13y ago

I do have some skin in this game, so do take this with a pinch of salt patio11 "followed the dream" - and turns out dreamland is not so perfect after all. Yet enough people are interested in following, and willingly pay for travel guides for the journey. Yes, it was nicer when he had a day job, did a little bit of bingo cards and blogging in the evenings. But even if he does not write it down, or even admit it to himself, at a certain point on the journey even nice people say "I want some of that for myself". I do. And he is taking his path to achieve that. If he succeeds or if he fails, I will learn something from watching. And I will learn something from what he says. What I do with that information is my problem. Sadly I know that it will not be getting paid a lot of money to do fun and interesting coding all day. But that's the journey.

caw 13y ago

I think it's because you're looking at it like this: 1) BCC (And the AB testing, SEO, etc) 2) Appointment Reminder 3) ??? 4) Mentoring / coaching / training The part 3 was consulting, where people paid him money for 4, but presumably there's some NDAs prohibiting write ups the same as BCC. Appointment Reminder has always been a bit more secretive because of Patrick deciding between taking investment or bootstrapping. By not knowing the middle you think it's a huge change, but it's really not. Ramit Seethi you can look at a similar way. How did he jump from a book in 2009 to having several products on what basically amounts to life coaching (dream job, earning money on the side, resume improvements, etc)? In only 3 years since the book he's convinced individuals to drop $2-15k on the promise that he can help them get a better job. To me that seems like a bigger jump than what Patrick has done, but I don't know the middle.

ericabiz 13y ago
> How did he jump from a book in 2009 to having several products on what basically amounts to life coaching (dream job, earning money on the side, resume improvements, etc)? The funny thing about Hacker News is you never know who's going to be reading your posts. Hi! I'm the person who convinced Ramit to quit his day job and do this blogging/product thing full time several years ago. I also know Patrick personally and it's an interesting comparison you are making between the two of them. > In only 3 years since the book he's convinced individuals to drop $2-15k on the promise that he can help them get a better job. I understand the skepticism around Ramit's products, especially from the HN crowd. However, knowing Ramit and having been through his products as a reviewer, they are stellar, and the results he gets for his students are meticulously documented. That's not to say they're for everyone--as an entrepreneur myself, I didn't get as much value as a job-seeker would have, and Ramit is probably a couple years away from creating a product geared toward entrepreneurs. Knowing both Ramit and Patrick, the main similarity I see is both have a deeply analytical mind. Neither takes anything for granted, and they're both fanatical testers...not just with marketing copy, but also with their products. Ramit goes to ridiculous levels to make sure his products are bar none the best out there. He spends hundreds of thousands of dollars a year on salaries and hiring the best people so that his products can be the top of their class. Patrick is a bit different, as he got burned on consulting (I'm sure he'll tell that story when he's ready) and went back to focusing on products. He's newer to the info product segment than Ramit, and a little more gun-shy when it comes to aggressive sales. (Ramit uses more aggressive sales tactics because he strongly feels--and has the testimonials to back it up--that he does have the best stuff out there.) Patrick is more cautious, as a geek first and foremost, and someone who built up his list through Hacker News and other geek-oriented websites. In neither case would I hesitate to buy one of their products that was aimed in my direction or endorse them for other folks in their respective target markets. Both Patrick and Ramit operate from a foundation of integrity and putting the best stuff out there. I'm fortunate to count both of them as friends and mentors.