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It's defamation to call an Auschwitz survivor a liar. More general, it's defamatory to implicitly say that all those people that know the facts are liars.

tptacek 18y ago
It's defamation if it's known to be false and spoken maliciously. Moreover, to be actionable, defamation has to actually cause damage. You're making assumptions here that won't survive your argument.
- Confusion 18y ago
  The fact that you cannot get someone sentenced for defamation does not mean his words weren't defamatory. If a murder is committed in a crowd of fifty and they all deny knowing who the murderer is, making justice impossible, then one of them is still a murderer. Imagine a holocaust surviver with a business. Imagine a client that is convinced by a lying holocaust denier. Business owner loses client. In more general terms, lies cause damage in indirect ways. That you cannot prove such a thing in an individual case does not mean no damage is done. The aggregated effect of holocaust deniers convincing a few more people that the Jews are a lying bunch necessarily causes damage.
  - tptacek 18y ago
    "Imagine a client that is convinced by a lying holocaust denier". Can I imagine him with antennae, too? You haven't addressed my point, and you're repeating points you've made elsewhere in this thread. You're making the same assumptions (that deniers are malicious "liars", and not simply morons), and informing us only that you're afraid of certain kinds of speech.
    - Confusion 18y ago
      Antennae would be very fashionable in Milan this time of the year :). Was your point that 'defamation' has a strict meaning in law and that I was wrong in suggesting that these deniers are guilty of defamation in that strict sense? In that case, that is probably true, I'll trust you on that. My previous comment was intended to explain that I did not mean it in such a strict sense. My argument was not that it is wrong because it is that exact offense that is punishable by law. The fact that we have laws covering parts of that behaviour merely illustrates that we consider it wrong. But that only parts of the behaviour are covered does not mean that the other parts are not considered wrong. Some behaviour is not outlawed because it is not feasible to formulate proper laws to cover the behaviour: even in countries where holocaust denial is forbidden, most cases of holocaust denial cannot possibly be prosecuted. As an aside, in my book, a 'liar' does not necessarily have malicious intent. He may just be ignorant: morons and liars are not mutually exclusive. Finally, seeing what demagogues have been capable of: yes, the power of words is scary. Fear is a bad counsellor, but still a warning to be heeded after the fear has passed over you and through you.
      - deleted 18y ago
        [deleted]
philwelch 18y ago
Not by the law. Or are you using "defamatory" as a label to dismiss ideas without having to actually prove them false? (Fact: Proving that the Holocaust actually happened is easier, and works better, than trying to change people's opinions through sheer outrage.) http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html

tptacek 18y ago

It's defamation if it's known to be false and spoken maliciously. Moreover, to be actionable, defamation has to actually cause damage. You're making assumptions here that won't survive your argument.

Confusion 18y ago
The fact that you cannot get someone sentenced for defamation does not mean his words weren't defamatory. If a murder is committed in a crowd of fifty and they all deny knowing who the murderer is, making justice impossible, then one of them is still a murderer. Imagine a holocaust surviver with a business. Imagine a client that is convinced by a lying holocaust denier. Business owner loses client. In more general terms, lies cause damage in indirect ways. That you cannot prove such a thing in an individual case does not mean no damage is done. The aggregated effect of holocaust deniers convincing a few more people that the Jews are a lying bunch necessarily causes damage.
- tptacek 18y ago
  "Imagine a client that is convinced by a lying holocaust denier". Can I imagine him with antennae, too? You haven't addressed my point, and you're repeating points you've made elsewhere in this thread. You're making the same assumptions (that deniers are malicious "liars", and not simply morons), and informing us only that you're afraid of certain kinds of speech.
  - Confusion 18y ago
    Antennae would be very fashionable in Milan this time of the year :). Was your point that 'defamation' has a strict meaning in law and that I was wrong in suggesting that these deniers are guilty of defamation in that strict sense? In that case, that is probably true, I'll trust you on that. My previous comment was intended to explain that I did not mean it in such a strict sense. My argument was not that it is wrong because it is that exact offense that is punishable by law. The fact that we have laws covering parts of that behaviour merely illustrates that we consider it wrong. But that only parts of the behaviour are covered does not mean that the other parts are not considered wrong. Some behaviour is not outlawed because it is not feasible to formulate proper laws to cover the behaviour: even in countries where holocaust denial is forbidden, most cases of holocaust denial cannot possibly be prosecuted. As an aside, in my book, a 'liar' does not necessarily have malicious intent. He may just be ignorant: morons and liars are not mutually exclusive. Finally, seeing what demagogues have been capable of: yes, the power of words is scary. Fear is a bad counsellor, but still a warning to be heeded after the fear has passed over you and through you.
    - deleted 18y ago
      [deleted]

philwelch 18y ago

Not by the law. Or are you using "defamatory" as a label to dismiss ideas without having to actually prove them false? (Fact: Proving that the Holocaust actually happened is easier, and works better, than trying to change people's opinions through sheer outrage.) http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html