35 ms·

While I'm not claiming that the US is currently close to totalitarianism, there are some comparisons that have become quite disturbing: 1. A regime that justif

by zeteo 13y ago

While I'm not claiming that the US is currently close to totalitarianism, there are some comparisons that have become quite disturbing: 1. A regime that justifies itself by claiming to protect the populace from a vague but grave danger. The USSR had the specter of returning robber barons; Nazi Germany, the Jews; and current-day US, terrorists. 2. A secret police that collects everyone's metadata and uses it to investigate suspicious activity. (Stasi didn't record everything all the time; they kept files of who communicated with whom, and assigned surveillance assets to the most promising leads.) 3. A heavy-handed, militarized regular police that apprehends nonviolent suspects with overwhelming force. I could go on, but the combination of these three is more than enough cause for worry.

conformal 13y ago
a couple quotes come to mind: - 1984 - "War is Peace, Ignorance is Strength ,Freedom is Slavery" - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe - "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."
- personlurking 13y ago
  - Yuri Bezmenov - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlpODYhnPEo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlpODYhnPEo
  - speeder 13y ago
    I find it really sad when people REFUSE to believe this guy, but he said himself people would not believe him anyway :( Here in Brazil, this plan was also implemented, part of it for example was the creation of our no-fault divorce laws with help of TV Soap Operas. Later, the author of the soap opera that pushed for no-fault divorce (and indeed, it worked, no-fault divorce was made law in the same year as his soap opera) made even a book writing on how he is a communist and how he uses TV to manipulate society toward communist objectives, and even if you point Yuri interview and this guy book, people refuse to believe it, they think that society changed because it was 100% their choice and that the changes were 100% good and whoever say the opposite is crazy.
    - pyre 13y ago
      > he said himself people would not > believe him anyway This is proof of nothing: I know that most people will call me a crack-pot and few will believe me, but hear this: The Moon Is Made of Cheese!
      - personlurking 13y ago
        Your comment appears to half 'attack' the commenter above and half 'attack' Bezmenov, while not saying much. If the use of 'crack-pot' was in reference to Bezmenov, I reccommend first watching his longer (hour-plus) classroom talk from the early 80s, also on Youtube. The main message and content is clear enough, and saying the current empire will fall is far from saying 'the moon is made of cheese'.
        pyre 13y ago
        1) I wasn't intending to attack Bezmenov. I haven't heard his message, so I can't pass any kind of judgement/opinion on it. 2) My intent was to lodge my dislike of statements such as: People don't believe X, but it's ok because X said that no one would believe him/her. I viewed it (possibly falsely) as using lack of belief as validation of the message itself. [ This can be done even if the messenger didn't intend for the audience to use his/her statements this way, so it's not necessarily an attack against him/her. ] 3) It (to me) has similarities to statements like: <statement 1> is true! <opposing group> might try to distract you by saying <statement 2>, but don't believe them because it's all lies! [ Note: I'm not saying that Bezmenov made any such statements, or that such statements are in his character. ]
        personlurking 13y ago
        I understand. Thank you for the response.
ekianjo 13y ago
You forgot a couple: 4. A powerful executive center for decision making, interfering with the established separation of powers. 5. Powerful Media channels controlled by the executive power and the industry in bed with it, leading propaganda and misinformation. That is exactly what you need to start a more total state.
- coldtea 13y ago
  And a few more: 6) Behaving like a global imperial power, doing whatever it likes (from invading to operations) in sovereign countries. 7) Secret prisons, outside legal process.
  - loginalready 13y ago
    Naomi Wolf already made this list a while ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjALf12PAWc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjALf12PAWc
  - xordon 13y ago
    There are 10 steps in total: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/naomi-wolf/ten-steps-to-close-down-a_b_46695.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/naomi-wolf/ten-steps-to-close-...
    - popee 13y ago
      Very interesting article. I would add one more, important, thing that is specific to current situation: 11 Always talk and demand for transparency and open society. Ofc this is not true because they demand only civil sector to be open while at the same time they are closed and even secret (ffs secret laws???). You can't demand open society with one or more parts of that society closed. Let me rephrase this, when facebook/google calls for open society -> they should open their database first, not demanding people to give them more data and lock that data down. Little bit radical idea, but don't demand something you are not willing to make yourself.
    - igravious 13y ago
      Absolutely brilliant article. Thanks for posting the link. I got an immense amount out of that.
kaonashi 13y ago
> While I'm not claiming that the US is currently close to totalitarianism A useful line of thought: what would it take for you to say that it was?
- alan_cx 13y ago
  Yeah, I wonder that too. Im not being clever here, I think that the US is getting like that, but really deep down it doesn't feel like a Nazi Germany (or the like), but it sure is displaying signs of it. So, I'm not even sure what I think, and what the tipping point is where you can say that the US is in that group. One thing I wonder about is whether its simply presentation? Its is simply that the US has a veil of democracy? Which people can vote, will it ever be seen as a totalitarian state, or stasi like, etc? One problem I have is that Americans voted for this and previous government and there for must approve of what the USG does. "USA, USA, USA", and all that. Then I wonder if Americans are basically brain washed with this "best country in the world" nonsense, and this "they hate our freedoms" line, which is a contradiction in its self. Perhaps the US is something new? A democratic fascist state, or something? I mean, the US people have no problem with the likes of Bush threatening countries with bombing back to the stone age to get their own way. No problem with killer flying robots murdering suspects on foreign soil with out permission of that country. No problem with CIA kidnapping and torture for dirty worthless foreigners. Only when Americans feel the USG is threatening them do they get upset. But frankly, screw non Americans, they are not human or equal. Seems to me Americans enjoy their world power, love licking every one else around, but suddenly, when its them..... I think what the US is today is very much like bad countries in the past who had disproportionate power and use it to further their own ambition at the expense of every one else. But unlike previous states, the US does it with its own democratic vote that makes it all just fine. What name you give that, I don't know. The one single thing that does worry me though is this notion that Americans are some how more valuable, more human, more important that any other people. That different rights apply. To Americans, we are not all human first. YES I know not ALL Americans think like that. But the democratic results and opinion poles suggest that in the main, most Americans do. I have to say there does seem to be a huge difference between Americans who travel abroad and those who don't. I also include those who spend a lot of time professionally interacting with the rest of the planet too. The internet has expanded that, just like here, on this site. I see hope here. I see Americans with a far better world view. HN, IMHO, has really helped me with that.
ericssmith 13y ago
I think it's worth distinguishing between the iron-fisted totalitarianism of the 20th century, colonialism of the 19th century, and military based hegemony going into the 21st. The iron-fisted path to empire didn't work out too well. But I think "total" control is the goal in all cases.
hannibal5 13y ago
This is not totalitarianism, its creeping authoritarianism: >Authoritarianism is a form of government. Juan Linz, whose 1964 description of authoritarianism is influential,[1] characterized authoritarianism regimes as political systems characterized by four qualities: (1) "limited, not responsible, political pluralism"; that is, constraints on political institutions and groups (such as legislatures, political parties, and interest groups), (2) a basis for legitimacy based on emotion, especially the identification of the regime as a necessary evil to combat "easily recognizable societal problems" such as underdevelopment or insurgency; (3) neither "intensive nor extensive political mobilization" and constraints on the mass public (such as repressive tactics against opponents and a prohibition of antiregime activity) and (4) "formally ill-defined" executive power, often shifting or vague.[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarianism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarianism
dllthomas 13y ago
My understanding is that the scare used to justify totalitarianism in NAZI Germany was terrorism (blamed on the Communists).

by zeteo 13y ago

conformal 13y ago

a couple quotes come to mind: - 1984 - "War is Peace, Ignorance is Strength ,Freedom is Slavery" - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe - "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."

personlurking 13y ago
- Yuri Bezmenov - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlpODYhnPEo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlpODYhnPEo
- speeder 13y ago
  I find it really sad when people REFUSE to believe this guy, but he said himself people would not believe him anyway :( Here in Brazil, this plan was also implemented, part of it for example was the creation of our no-fault divorce laws with help of TV Soap Operas. Later, the author of the soap opera that pushed for no-fault divorce (and indeed, it worked, no-fault divorce was made law in the same year as his soap opera) made even a book writing on how he is a communist and how he uses TV to manipulate society toward communist objectives, and even if you point Yuri interview and this guy book, people refuse to believe it, they think that society changed because it was 100% their choice and that the changes were 100% good and whoever say the opposite is crazy.
  - pyre 13y ago
    > he said himself people would not > believe him anyway This is proof of nothing: I know that most people will call me a crack-pot and few will believe me, but hear this: The Moon Is Made of Cheese!
    - personlurking 13y ago
      Your comment appears to half 'attack' the commenter above and half 'attack' Bezmenov, while not saying much. If the use of 'crack-pot' was in reference to Bezmenov, I reccommend first watching his longer (hour-plus) classroom talk from the early 80s, also on Youtube. The main message and content is clear enough, and saying the current empire will fall is far from saying 'the moon is made of cheese'.
      - pyre 13y ago
        1) I wasn't intending to attack Bezmenov. I haven't heard his message, so I can't pass any kind of judgement/opinion on it. 2) My intent was to lodge my dislike of statements such as: People don't believe X, but it's ok because X said that no one would believe him/her. I viewed it (possibly falsely) as using lack of belief as validation of the message itself. [ This can be done even if the messenger didn't intend for the audience to use his/her statements this way, so it's not necessarily an attack against him/her. ] 3) It (to me) has similarities to statements like: <statement 1> is true! <opposing group> might try to distract you by saying <statement 2>, but don't believe them because it's all lies! [ Note: I'm not saying that Bezmenov made any such statements, or that such statements are in his character. ]
        personlurking 13y ago
        I understand. Thank you for the response.

ekianjo 13y ago

You forgot a couple: 4. A powerful executive center for decision making, interfering with the established separation of powers. 5. Powerful Media channels controlled by the executive power and the industry in bed with it, leading propaganda and misinformation. That is exactly what you need to start a more total state.

coldtea 13y ago
And a few more: 6) Behaving like a global imperial power, doing whatever it likes (from invading to operations) in sovereign countries. 7) Secret prisons, outside legal process.
- loginalready 13y ago
  Naomi Wolf already made this list a while ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjALf12PAWc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjALf12PAWc
- xordon 13y ago
  There are 10 steps in total: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/naomi-wolf/ten-steps-to-close-down-a_b_46695.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/naomi-wolf/ten-steps-to-close-...
  - popee 13y ago
    Very interesting article. I would add one more, important, thing that is specific to current situation: 11 Always talk and demand for transparency and open society. Ofc this is not true because they demand only civil sector to be open while at the same time they are closed and even secret (ffs secret laws???). You can't demand open society with one or more parts of that society closed. Let me rephrase this, when facebook/google calls for open society -> they should open their database first, not demanding people to give them more data and lock that data down. Little bit radical idea, but don't demand something you are not willing to make yourself.
  - igravious 13y ago
    Absolutely brilliant article. Thanks for posting the link. I got an immense amount out of that.

kaonashi 13y ago

> While I'm not claiming that the US is currently close to totalitarianism A useful line of thought: what would it take for you to say that it was?

alan_cx 13y ago
Yeah, I wonder that too. Im not being clever here, I think that the US is getting like that, but really deep down it doesn't feel like a Nazi Germany (or the like), but it sure is displaying signs of it. So, I'm not even sure what I think, and what the tipping point is where you can say that the US is in that group. One thing I wonder about is whether its simply presentation? Its is simply that the US has a veil of democracy? Which people can vote, will it ever be seen as a totalitarian state, or stasi like, etc? One problem I have is that Americans voted for this and previous government and there for must approve of what the USG does. "USA, USA, USA", and all that. Then I wonder if Americans are basically brain washed with this "best country in the world" nonsense, and this "they hate our freedoms" line, which is a contradiction in its self. Perhaps the US is something new? A democratic fascist state, or something? I mean, the US people have no problem with the likes of Bush threatening countries with bombing back to the stone age to get their own way. No problem with killer flying robots murdering suspects on foreign soil with out permission of that country. No problem with CIA kidnapping and torture for dirty worthless foreigners. Only when Americans feel the USG is threatening them do they get upset. But frankly, screw non Americans, they are not human or equal. Seems to me Americans enjoy their world power, love licking every one else around, but suddenly, when its them..... I think what the US is today is very much like bad countries in the past who had disproportionate power and use it to further their own ambition at the expense of every one else. But unlike previous states, the US does it with its own democratic vote that makes it all just fine. What name you give that, I don't know. The one single thing that does worry me though is this notion that Americans are some how more valuable, more human, more important that any other people. That different rights apply. To Americans, we are not all human first. YES I know not ALL Americans think like that. But the democratic results and opinion poles suggest that in the main, most Americans do. I have to say there does seem to be a huge difference between Americans who travel abroad and those who don't. I also include those who spend a lot of time professionally interacting with the rest of the planet too. The internet has expanded that, just like here, on this site. I see hope here. I see Americans with a far better world view. HN, IMHO, has really helped me with that.

ericssmith 13y ago

I think it's worth distinguishing between the iron-fisted totalitarianism of the 20th century, colonialism of the 19th century, and military based hegemony going into the 21st. The iron-fisted path to empire didn't work out too well. But I think "total" control is the goal in all cases.

hannibal5 13y ago

This is not totalitarianism, its creeping authoritarianism: >Authoritarianism is a form of government. Juan Linz, whose 1964 description of authoritarianism is influential,[1] characterized authoritarianism regimes as political systems characterized by four qualities: (1) "limited, not responsible, political pluralism"; that is, constraints on political institutions and groups (such as legislatures, political parties, and interest groups), (2) a basis for legitimacy based on emotion, especially the identification of the regime as a necessary evil to combat "easily recognizable societal problems" such as underdevelopment or insurgency; (3) neither "intensive nor extensive political mobilization" and constraints on the mass public (such as repressive tactics against opponents and a prohibition of antiregime activity) and (4) "formally ill-defined" executive power, often shifting or vague.[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarianism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarianism

dllthomas 13y ago

My understanding is that the scare used to justify totalitarianism in NAZI Germany was terrorism (blamed on the Communists).