2 ms·

We forgive those that utter uninformed statements, 'for they know not what they do'. When they are informed of what they do and insist on repeating the statemen

We forgive those that utter uninformed statements, 'for they know not what they do'. When they are informed of what they do and insist on repeating the statement, it becomes a lie. The phrase "when they are informed" skips the step where they are somehow convinced of the truth of the information. Do you think that they "really know" the Holocaust happened and are actually lying, or do you think they're actually mistaken? If there's any significant chance of the latter (and if you think that Holocaust deniers are a serious problem, which I don't necessarily agree with), then figuring out what evidence would be convincing is important.

Confusion 18y ago
Of course they are convinced they are telling the truth, but that is not an acceptable excuse. If you go down that road, you can't put anyone in prison anymore: "they were just born and raised that way". A holocaust denier, or General Relativity denier for what that matters, arrives at his conviction through contingent factors that are nigh impossible to trace. Fortunately, that also isn't required. As in the case of the criminal, we still hold them accountable for their convictions and the damage that those convictions do, irrespective of their capacity to understand why it is wrong. We like to believe that punishment teaches and that even criminals consider their punishments fair. Fact is: they don't consider them fair and they don't learn. Yet we keep punishing them, because locking them away makes life much nicer for the rest of us.
- randallsquared 18y ago
  We like to believe I think you're making broad assumptions about what we (by which I assume you mean world (or maybe just Western) civilization) want and believe which may not hold up to scrutiny. While they're often conflated, there are at least three different goals for what societies do to criminals: retribution, restitution, and punishment. Some of us think that it would be better to use the first two only, and that feeling "punished" should be only an effect of that. But that's another topic.
  - Confusion 18y ago
    I certainly grant that when I write 'we like to believe X, but', it means 'I would like to believe X and I think most people (like to) believe X'. :) Don't most people do that, perhaps without realizing it?
    - randallsquared 18y ago
      I do think most people do that. I just think that here it's not actually the case (though maybe it is with the crowd here on HN; I'm probably more conservative than most here).

Confusion 18y ago

Of course they are convinced they are telling the truth, but that is not an acceptable excuse. If you go down that road, you can't put anyone in prison anymore: "they were just born and raised that way". A holocaust denier, or General Relativity denier for what that matters, arrives at his conviction through contingent factors that are nigh impossible to trace. Fortunately, that also isn't required. As in the case of the criminal, we still hold them accountable for their convictions and the damage that those convictions do, irrespective of their capacity to understand why it is wrong. We like to believe that punishment teaches and that even criminals consider their punishments fair. Fact is: they don't consider them fair and they don't learn. Yet we keep punishing them, because locking them away makes life much nicer for the rest of us.

randallsquared 18y ago
We like to believe I think you're making broad assumptions about what we (by which I assume you mean world (or maybe just Western) civilization) want and believe which may not hold up to scrutiny. While they're often conflated, there are at least three different goals for what societies do to criminals: retribution, restitution, and punishment. Some of us think that it would be better to use the first two only, and that feeling "punished" should be only an effect of that. But that's another topic.
- Confusion 18y ago
  I certainly grant that when I write 'we like to believe X, but', it means 'I would like to believe X and I think most people (like to) believe X'. :) Don't most people do that, perhaps without realizing it?
  - randallsquared 18y ago
    I do think most people do that. I just think that here it's not actually the case (though maybe it is with the crowd here on HN; I'm probably more conservative than most here).