> Since we just went right back to where we started, I can see that there's probably no way I can convince you of my (or Linus's) position. I'm okay with that,

> Since we just went right back to where we started, I can see that there's probably no way I can convince you of my (or Linus's) position. I'm okay with that, I think I've laid out my arguments fairly well and you have yours. I still disagree with a lot of what you say, but that's fine, in a week or so the only place this argument will exist is in our HN comment history. Well, I feel the same (no hard feelings either). Moreover I am pretty sure I hit my limit regarding my ability in having a nuanced conversation in a foreign language. I'll just chime in some personal experience regarding the matter at hand: - I was bad in PE: insulted, made fun of and awkward, the "I don't look at the ball so nobody will pass it to me" attitude. Then around my 15's summer I started hanging with some childhood "friends" who had turned delinquents. Mostly played basket-ball with them all days and night long on the playground. They played hard and were cursing a lot, yet they were somehow supportive. Come a new year school and I got much better at sports in general and finally enjoyed PE. Some got in really bad situation regarding the law after that but I can't recall a situation where one of them would be as aggressive towards another player as Linus is towards others on those mailing-list. But I remember reading him once saying "cursing comes after a lot of trying to get my point across and not being heard". My main grief is: I don't believe in shaming and I am under the impression cursing and yelling is really close to shaming and that this is what people try to defend when justifying any of Linus's occurrence of cursing.