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Yes, you're free to express what you want out of the Constitution but you're not free to break laws as interpreted by our federal courts. Unless the Constitutio

Yes, you're free to express what you want out of the Constitution but you're not free to break laws as interpreted by our federal courts. Unless the Constitution is amended, shouldn't we be following the rule of law and let the Court interpret the Constitution?

foobarbazqux 13y ago
You're free to do what you want as long as you're willing to accept the consequences. You're free to rob a bank if you think it's worth the potential jail time and harm to other people.
- bobo1357 13y ago
  This is quite the straw man. I meant free in a legal sense.
  - foobarbazqux 13y ago
    It's exactly the point though. You are free to break laws, or at least you are free to try. You are not nearly so free to break laws once you are in prison. I think what you're saying is that you cannot expect to break laws without there being consequences. Of course we agree about that. The point of civil disobedience is that you believe so strongly you are willing to pay the price. Perhaps you believe it is morally wrong to break laws as a means of getting the courts to interpret the Constitution?
    - ianterrell 13y ago
      He's not actually saying anything. Don't feed the trolls.
betterunix 13y ago
The problem with that approach is that it allows unjust laws to persist indefinitely. Every so often someone needs to stand up and refuse to play by the rules to ensure that unjust laws are repealed. Look at the situation Snowden faced. You have a system that widely violates basic privacy rights, based on a secret interpretation of the law, approved by a secret court that only hears the executive branch's arguments and which almost never refuses to grant a warrant (i.e. it is a rubber stamp), with oversight by people who are chosen by the executive branch and who work in secret. These programs, conducted in secret, are widely approved of by the government and widely disapproved of by the general public. Had Snowden accepted the rules and the law, these programs would remain secret and would have continued unopposed indefinitely. The rule of law does not work when laws are kept secret from everyone. Healthy societies need everyone to follow the law, yes, but they also need for people who recognize failures of the system to stand up despite laws that forbid them from doing so.
- anigbrowl 13y ago
  widely disapproved of by the general public [citation needed]
  - ianterrell 13y ago
    Here are three polls that show between 41% and 58% disapproval: http://www.imediaethics.org/Blog/3984/Why_3_polls_on_nsa_snooping_produce_wildly_contradictory_results.php http://www.imediaethics.org/Blog/3984/Why_3_polls_on_nsa_sno... Sure, that's far from unanimous, but "widely disapproved of by the general public" doesn't seem like a terrible stretch. On the subject of polls, this article also shows the meta trends that this discussion is a part of: http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/07/10/public-opinion-shifts-on-security-liberty-balance/ http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/07/10/public-o...
    - anigbrowl 13y ago
      I don't think supports the original claim at all. FTA: All three pollsters asked their respondents how closely they had followed the NSA issue, and all three found just over a quarter of Americans following the issue “very closely,” while they found from about a third to half not paying close attention at all. So, how could they report 90% or more of the public with a meaningful opinion about the NSA tracking program? The answer: They all used a “forced-choice” question format, which pressures respondents to make an on-the-spot decision, regardless of how committed they might be to that view. Thus, many people with no real views on the matter had to come up with one, and were thus highly influenced by the priming they had undergone during the interview itself.

foobarbazqux 13y ago

You're free to do what you want as long as you're willing to accept the consequences. You're free to rob a bank if you think it's worth the potential jail time and harm to other people.

bobo1357 13y ago
This is quite the straw man. I meant free in a legal sense.
- foobarbazqux 13y ago
  It's exactly the point though. You are free to break laws, or at least you are free to try. You are not nearly so free to break laws once you are in prison. I think what you're saying is that you cannot expect to break laws without there being consequences. Of course we agree about that. The point of civil disobedience is that you believe so strongly you are willing to pay the price. Perhaps you believe it is morally wrong to break laws as a means of getting the courts to interpret the Constitution?
  - ianterrell 13y ago
    He's not actually saying anything. Don't feed the trolls.

betterunix 13y ago

The problem with that approach is that it allows unjust laws to persist indefinitely. Every so often someone needs to stand up and refuse to play by the rules to ensure that unjust laws are repealed. Look at the situation Snowden faced. You have a system that widely violates basic privacy rights, based on a secret interpretation of the law, approved by a secret court that only hears the executive branch's arguments and which almost never refuses to grant a warrant (i.e. it is a rubber stamp), with oversight by people who are chosen by the executive branch and who work in secret. These programs, conducted in secret, are widely approved of by the government and widely disapproved of by the general public. Had Snowden accepted the rules and the law, these programs would remain secret and would have continued unopposed indefinitely. The rule of law does not work when laws are kept secret from everyone. Healthy societies need everyone to follow the law, yes, but they also need for people who recognize failures of the system to stand up despite laws that forbid them from doing so.

anigbrowl 13y ago
widely disapproved of by the general public [citation needed]
- ianterrell 13y ago
  Here are three polls that show between 41% and 58% disapproval: http://www.imediaethics.org/Blog/3984/Why_3_polls_on_nsa_snooping_produce_wildly_contradictory_results.php http://www.imediaethics.org/Blog/3984/Why_3_polls_on_nsa_sno... Sure, that's far from unanimous, but "widely disapproved of by the general public" doesn't seem like a terrible stretch. On the subject of polls, this article also shows the meta trends that this discussion is a part of: http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/07/10/public-opinion-shifts-on-security-liberty-balance/ http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/07/10/public-o...
  - anigbrowl 13y ago
    I don't think supports the original claim at all. FTA: All three pollsters asked their respondents how closely they had followed the NSA issue, and all three found just over a quarter of Americans following the issue “very closely,” while they found from about a third to half not paying close attention at all. So, how could they report 90% or more of the public with a meaningful opinion about the NSA tracking program? The answer: They all used a “forced-choice” question format, which pressures respondents to make an on-the-spot decision, regardless of how committed they might be to that view. Thus, many people with no real views on the matter had to come up with one, and were thus highly influenced by the priming they had undergone during the interview itself.