8 ms·

Linus Torvalds defends his right to shame Linux kernel developers

67 points by shawndumas 13y ago

tomp 13y ago
So many words for nothing... Why don't we all just learn to judge others by their behaviour and not by their words? Sometimes, it looks that a well-spoken murderer would be better-perceived than a cursing saint...
- steveklabnik 13y ago
  Speaking words isn't a form of behavior?
  - tomp 13y ago
    It is, but people tend to take it too seriously. Two examples: 1) Nigger. The word in itself is so politically incorrect, that it's inappropriate to use it even in conversations about the word itself! (E.g. to point out the "reverse"-racism, how blacks can use the word "nigger", but whites can't.) 2) Almost any topic that people have a very strong opinion about. E.g. feminism, chauvinism, and using rape threats against Adria Richards - for example, I could argue that people are wrong of accusing those who threatened her to be chauvinists, because if you want to threaten someone, it makes perfect sense to threaten them in the worst possible way - death, rape, hurting their children... so the problem aren't rape threats, but threats in general. But most people only hear the part of the argument "rape threats aren't the problem" and totally disregard the rest of the conversation or even the fact that I don't necessarily believe what I'm saying, I'm just presenting the rational argument! In words of Aristotle: > It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. Many people don't get this. Attacking a good person because they swear is usually the symptom of this.
    - steveklabnik 13y ago
      You're considering words entirely outside of their social, political, and historical context. Context matters: if I point a gun at you, should you get upset? Why, I mean, I haven't actually _done_ anything to you, it's just a threat! Sure in an abstract sense a gun imposed no inherent harm. It's how you use it. Also, this isn't very 'rational,' for example: > so the problem aren't rape threats, but threats in general If threats are a problem then rape threats are a problem.
- VMG 13y ago
  Cunt. (see?)
shmerl 13y ago
He can't excuse foul language with his inability to express what he wants to convey. His lack of manners is really shocking.
- slantyyz 13y ago
  >> His lack of manners is really shocking. Yes, it is. But it's his kernel and people choose to work on his kernel, and not a fork, in spite of his well known behaviour. He gets away with his antics because of his rock star status. On the other hand, I find Linus' own behaviour much less bothersome than people who behave like Linus who aren't even remotely at his stature.
- jlgreco 13y ago
  > His lack of manners is really shocking. Your perspective is not universal.
adamnemecek 13y ago
A developer does not understand sarcasm, more news at 11.
- sp332 13y ago
  I think it's hyperbole she's missing. "You may need to learn how to shout at people" is not literal, but it's not the opposite of what is meant. It's just exaggerated.
  - claudius 13y ago
    The parts about Kroah-Hartman being able to ‘squish’ you were quite obviously sarcasm/banter and not actually meant literally.
  - slantyyz 13y ago
    People will always interpret written words in their own way. Interpretation of tone is not universal. I can't tell you how many times I've told people to make a phone call instead of wasting time parsing out the tone of something their clients or coworkers wrote in an e-mail.
twerquie 13y ago
It's clear that Linus, having spent his career working from home in his bathrobe, has absolutely no clue what professionalism means. It's less about the neckties and watercooler politics he imagines and more about treating your peers with basic respect and human dignity. He appears to have the social skills of someone recently released from maximum security prison. He's like a homeschooled kid who bites the other children at birthday parties.
- sp332 13y ago
  He has a lot of experience doing what works for his particular project. His style works for his most active contributors and lieutenants. I don't think you can say he has under-developed social skills, but they are probably "over-fitted" to a specific social structure.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
    - thezilch 13y ago
      And? What makes something right? Or that there is only one right approach? That's Linus's point; having everyone agree and hug it out is a waste of his time. You don't have to report directly to him to make things happen.
      - twerquie 13y ago
        (I deleted my comment above before I saw your reply) Society has norms for determining right and wrong social behaviour. We teach children not to behave this way at a very early age. I'm sure these societal values aren't completely consistent across cultures and ages, but I'd be surprised if most people you ask don't characterize his language as hostile and abusive. Of course, everyone has a right to be an asshole.
  - Joeri 13y ago
    But does his project work despite his abrasive style or because of it? We have to avoid confusing correlation and causation.
ssw1n 13y ago
I will take a 24/7 roaring colleague who roars about all of good and bad to you without reservations than a colleague who will put on smiling face, and back-stabs you when the time is right. Sadly for most people, it is more about Corporate Culture and Interpersonal Skill and Street Smart and blah blah blah than being really competent and getting real things done.
_sabe_ 13y ago
The best kind of friends are those that right out calls me idiot when they see I'm doing something idiotic. It's liberating, because we both know that the harsh tone is not due to my whole being being defined as a idiot, but that specific thing I did was indeed stupid and he/she cared enough about me to tell me straight out...
- dntrkv 13y ago
  If your friend is acting like an idiot, you pull them aside and tell them so. You don't yell "_SABE_, SHUT THE FUCK UP" in front of the whole world. You can be a good friend without resorting to acting like the asshole that is Linus Torvalds.
- johnchristopher 13y ago
  There's a difference between "You are an idiot." and "What you did was stupid".
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
if_by_whisky 13y ago
Verbal abuse might be necessarily unprofessional, but nobody is asking Linus to wear a tie. It would be nice if he would just not bully well-intentioned contributers.
- thezilch 13y ago
  It would be nice if seasoned veterans did not submit crap and regressions. It would be nice if there was documentation coming out of our ears. It would be nice if P always equals NP. It would not be nice if Linus were a saint.
  - jfb 13y ago
    One of those things is in his control.
    - jeltz 13y ago
      Yes, making sure that veterans do not submit crap by calling them out on it.
oellegaard 13y ago
The use of words such as violence and abuse is disturbing. We are talking about a guy thats swearing - not a rapist. Sorry, but swearing isn't very uncommon in Scandinavia. I didn't sign an agreement to act according to some US code of conduct - I assume Linus is feeling the same way. Although I certainly wouldn't do what he does, I respect him standing up against the American CoC mafia. I heard Steve Jobs was very rude to his employees, if they did a poor job as well - I guess all of this happened inside the Apple HQ as well - its just easier to be angry with someone who is not your boss (oh, and if everything happens on a mailing list).
- wavefunction 13y ago
  We drop motherfucker and other "curse" words in my US office all day long here. Mostly due to some bullshit coming down the fucking pike from some dumbass account manager who doesn't know their ass from a hole in the ground.
  - tptacek 13y ago
    We're users and admirers of profanity here as well. My admiration of profane language runs so deep that it is a parenting problem; my kids swear, we don't punish it, and they risk trouble at school. Which, fine. Sarah Sharp isn't criticizing Torvalds merely for using profanity. That's not her argument at all. Also, consider the different impact the same words have when you're using them in person and the target of those words can assess body language. Consider also whether every person in your office is someone you'd feel equally comfortable using that language with.
  - zalew 13y ago
    Loosely related anegdote: Not so long ago I heard of a study here in Poland (we curse like sailors) about which parts of society swear the most. The first group were the uneducated, bottom class workers, etc., just because they just don't know better how to express themselves. Obvious, right? At this point you think it will decrease linearally, but as it turns out, the second most cursing group were the well educated, people in position, all sorts of groups you would 'expect better', yet they are confident enough about their intelligence and vocabulary they don't feel the need to apply artificial boundaries around their means of expression. The ones who curse the least are the ones in between - because they are the ones who care enough to pretend and want to separate themselves from the lower classes - a matter of being paranoid about their social perception supposedly originating from insecurity. It's beyond me why people expect Linus to beat around the bushes like he were on an audition with the queen when he's not in a position to care enough to bend over third party social standards.
mrt0mat0 13y ago
this is why you have to keep mainstream out of technology. We're going to start acting like gossip girl. I've worked in all different fields, and IT has been the most efficient field by far, mostly because of the lack of coddling. I've done the nice thing, and all it does is create more work for me. Being more direct, and yes, rude may not be your favorite way to communicate, but it is direct, and at the end you have no doubts about what needs to be done, and what people consider important. Plus, people are a bit sensitive
moomin 13y ago
He's wrong, the behaviour isn't acceptable. He's right: he can run Linux however he wants. It'd be a bit more honest to say "I can be a jerk because I wrote Linux." than all of this moral relativist survival of the fittest macho bullshit, though.
- slantyyz 13y ago
  >> He's wrong, the behaviour isn't acceptable. I agree that he's wrong, but clearly his behaviour is accepted by his colleagues, because they continue to work on his kernel.
dobbsbob 13y ago
Why is everybody so concerned about Linus being who he is? Every month there's yet another article about 'rude open source developers'. I thought we were hackers and not conformists. I could care less what Linus says it's his kernel, his project, his life, his personality. Linux is not a job, it has no sensitivity training or rules of social conduct. If you don't like it don't volunteer. Nothing stopping you from forking the kernel, developing it yourself and calling it Sensetivlix: The GNUspeak conformity project.
- VMG 13y ago
  > Nothing stopping you from forking the kernel, developing it yourself and calling it Sensetivlix: The GNUspeak conformity project. Weirder things have happened
- avens19 13y ago
  You're absolutely right that it's totally up to him and he can act the way he likes, but I think the point of the article is that if you're claiming that open-source is a "community" endeavour, then perhaps being a giant asshole isn't the best means of accomplishing that end. He is discouraging potential developers from wanting to work with him for exactly the reasons you mentioned: it's not a job, there is no pay, he's not your boss. The last thing I want when volunteering my free time is some guy belittling me. As has been mentioned in this thread, there are ways of accomplishing the same task while being a reasonable human being. His ego and entitlement are justifying his behaviour and it's bullshit.
  - hamburglar 13y ago
    I'd say open source on the whole is a "community" endeavor, but individual open source projects are not necessarily. There are countless projects that are a single author who accepts bugfixes here and there but in general it's a one-man show. The linux kernel is like that: it's Linus' project that he lets some people help with. It's a dictatorship, largely ego-driven, and he has the last word on any philosophical, design, architectural, or even political decision. For better or for worse.
- NegativeK 13y ago
dkarl 13y ago
She says she will "roar back" and considers that a threat of retaliation that might deter them, but she is talking to people who don't mind roaring at all. She really is missing the point of cultural sensitivity -- cultures that are louder and more confrontational aren't required to play by the rules of cultures that work more quietly, just to cooperate with them. There isn't any accusation here that Linus unfairly judges the work or contributions of people who don't "roar." They just want him to stop yelling because their cultural bias causes them to perceive him as a threatening and potentially violent person.
- tptacek 13y ago
  The premise of your argument is that it's reasonable for a project manager to invoke "Finnish Culture" as a justification for calling people on their team names and singling them out for expletive-laced approbation in public. I don't know a lot of Finns, but do you honestly think a typical Finnish person would be comfortable with having their culture summed up that way?
  - hamburglar 13y ago
    I thought the Finnish culture excuse was pretty weak, but I think he'd be perfectly justified in saying "I don't plan to stop cursing at people who I think deserve it. If that means nobody wants to work on my project, then so be it." Because it's pretty obvious that there are plenty of people with enough enthusiasm for working on the kernel that they're willing to work with a profane curmudgeon, or perhaps people who do it because they actually enjoy that type of environment. And trying to frame this in terms of Linus being an abuser or advocating violence or preying on the weak is just extremely dumb and insulting to people who are actually victims of real abuse. It's emails on a mailing list calling your code shitty and/or calling you stupid for writing shitty code. For fuck's sake, if you're victimized by that, maybe every open source project isn't for you.
    - tptacek 13y ago
      She also didn't say she was "victimized" in any way.
tptacek 13y ago
Sarah Sharp is not messing around; here's her commit log: http://git.kernel.org/cgit/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/log/?qt=author&q=Sarah+Sharp http://git.kernel.org/cgit/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.g... She's a USB developer and it looks like the primary maintainer of the Linux xhci driver.
- brokenparser 13y ago
  Yep, she wrote it. I know because it says so in TFA.
  - tptacek 13y ago
    Neat. I know it from looking at her commits.
Zikes 13y ago
I dream of working for/with someone like Linus Torvalds. Seriously. There is absolutely no pretense here, no guessing, no fakery. If you work with Linus, you know exactly where you stand. He doesn't hold anything back, including criticisms that are critical to your own growth as a developer. And there can be no question - NONE - that what he does WORKS. Linux is on BILLIONS of devices worldwide, affecting BILLIONS of peoples' lives in as literal a sense as can be imagined. You have to be strict about that sort of software, you have to be hard, you have to have a very sharp edge, and you absolutely cannot afford to make mistakes. You don't have to like it, and you don't have to agree with it, but you certainly don't walk into Linus Torvalds' kitchen and tell him it's too hot.
- tptacek 13y ago
  How many of those billions of installs were enabled by Torvalds telling Mauro Carvalho Chehab to "SHUT THE FUCK UP" after Mauro tried to explain a previous patch? Try to be as specific as you can, thanks.
  - Zikes 13y ago
    All of them, and you're welcome.
  - johnbm 13y ago
    How many of the people whining about this problem have ever submitted a Linux kernel patch or considered it and said they wouldn't because of him? Name names, thanks.
    - DanBC 13y ago
      Do your own research. Various mailing lists are littered with the names of people who've dropped out because of toxic working environment.
    - thesnider 13y ago
      I will never submit a patch to the linux kernel, specifically, and only, because I cannot support Linus's attitude towards mailing list discussions.
cromwellian 13y ago
I see a lot of confirmation bias in these kinds of threads. Because Linux is a success, it must be because of Linus's particular brand of being a jerk, for the same reason that Apple is a success because Steve Jobs was a jerk. That is, an effective leader must be a jerk. But there are lots of other companies that are successful where people don't act like jackasses. For example, Google culture is anti-jackass, Googley means not being a dickhead. If you have a problem, explain what's wrong calmly and coherently, it's more efficient. Simply telling someone that they, or their code, is a piece of shit is not likely to be as efficient. IBM is another, when I worked at T.J. Watson, people were very civil. Civility is not about being "fake" or "politically correct", it's about being able to communicate your position by reason instead of by emotion, by shouting, by abuse, by reptilian brain. Linus gets a lot of leeway because of his work on Linux, and we will forever be thankful for that. But I don't believe good works earns you a pass from criticism of behavior. The founders of the United States are forever thanked for the Constitution, but that doesn't let them off for being slaveholders. I expect there will be some reflexive downvoting on this for criticizing the prophet, but honestly, Linus makes geeks look bad socially. Say what you will about Richard Stallman, there are lots of things he says I disagree with, but he says them with integrity and positivism and love, and not with angry denouncements.
- seivan 13y ago
  Could you enlighten me, what did Stallman write about Jobs again?
  - loser777 13y ago
    "As Chicago Mayor Harold Washington said of the corrupt former Mayor Daley, 'I'm not glad he's dead, but I'm glad he's gone.' Nobody deserves to have to die – not Jobs, not Mr. Bill, not even people guilty of bigger evils than theirs. But we all deserve the end of Jobs' malign influence on people's computing." Clearly, that was an angry denouncement... /sarcasm
    - seivan 13y ago
      No, it was passive aggressive bullshit, hidden in eloquent crap. The very thing Linus tries to avoid.
brunnsbe 13y ago
I'm just wondering if Linux would have been different it it wouldn't have been built on this "management by Perkele". I personally think there are a lot of competent developers around the world that could have contributed to the kernel but chose not to because of Linus style of communication Personally I uust feel embarrased by his behaviour, it's not typical for working in an international environment
grannyg00se 13y ago
"Sharp wrote: Linus Torvalds is advocating for physical intimidation and violence." Please, show me where Linus is advocating for this. Sounds absurd.
- didocmkcdkj 13y ago
  Seriously, she had to be a fucking woman. Keep in mind that she made it about gender.
  - to3m 13y ago
    And good on you, kind sir - or, perhaps, fair ma'am - for not making it about gender yourself.
zalew 13y ago
Why am I not surprised the majority of people complaining and getting offended in the name of third-party developers are American? It's not like we don't have our dose of pc on the old continent, but you'd be surprised how much less of a fuck is given about such issues around here.
- Taranis 13y ago
  It's because we in the US have had actual intelligence beat out of us in our schools so that garbage like this is important. I think Linus is right on the money with this.
  - zalew 13y ago
    You will enjoy 'Finland phenomenon', a documentary about their education system, if you haven't seen it yet.
dyno12345 13y ago
Am I the only one that thinks both sides are over the top? Linus is overly abrasive and I can't say I would want to work with someone like that, and at the same time, Sarah Sharp and Linus' critics are exaggerating and being overly dramatic (e.g., Linus is "advocating violence") and I wouldn't want to work with someone like that, either.
- future_grad 13y ago
  Seems like everything is just blown up to me. Are someone's words making you feel bad? Give it back to them or stop your crying. Why bother whining about it publicly? If people don't want to stand up to a single man by themselves then do you really think ganging up on him will solve anything for them individually?
- tome 13y ago
  I subscribe to your point of view.
- hamburglar 13y ago
  I totally agree with this. I think Linus is perfectly within his rights to want a project mailing list where he can just speak his mind and be an asshole when he wants to, and at the same time, I suspect that it isn't great for the project in the long term. If Linus being an asshole is a critical component to the linux kernel's success, it's doomed.
didocmkcdkj 13y ago
I'm seriously starting to resent Sarah. Freaking cry baby.
vowelless 13y ago
> Please be sensitive to _my_ culture too. > Google "management by perkele". > Do you really want to oppress a minority? Because Finns are a minority compared to almost any other country. If you want to talk cultural sensitivity, I'll join you. But my culture includes cursing. That made me chuckle. Based on my experience having worked with a few Fins; they are quite efficient and straight to the point. There is also a Quora answer [1] on why Nokia phones are so durable. Israelis have a similar mentality. From [2]: > Whenever there was a bombing, Israelis would run TO the blast to bandage people and help out. They risked their lives without a second thought to help each other with an 'of course' kind of attitude. Israelis don't even realize this is unique to them. Most just silently believe everyone shares the same attitude toward helping people in danger. > When you're in that kind of society, fake politeness is actually offensive. I've also experienced this mentality with Punjabi Sikhs. [1] http://qr.ae/INWWl http://qr.ae/INWWl [2] http://www.quora.com/Israeli-Culture/Why-are-Israeli-people-so-hard-to-work-with http://www.quora.com/Israeli-Culture/Why-are-Israeli-people-...
- Ras_ 13y ago
  I believe that this Israeli-Finnish mentality of informality and "to the point" attitude has something to do with both still having military draft, besides the usual being small, educated, remote and history of living under threat. In both countries there is remarkably small difference in perceived (and acted upon) status, say between prime minister and common man should they engage in casual conversation.
jerf 13y ago
The core problem here is that there are two different ideas about tolerance in play here, which I think is poorly understood as people tend to fling around the term without understanding that the word can describe almost diametrically opposed things. Linus is advocating for what you might call personal tolerance; as a human being, you should be prepared for the fact that not everyone in the world is like you, not everyone shares your standards or your culture, and that some people may be abrasive by your standards in a way that is acceptable in their culture or microculture. (And while it is talked about less, the alternative can occur too, where you encounter a culture that is more deferential than you are used too, and similar misunderstandings can easily occur.) It is for each person to accept these differences and learn to deal with them. The American left/liberalism has embraced a different definition of "tolerance", what I might call social or societal tolerance, which is that each individual is responsible for learning what is offensive to the person you are dealing with, and treating them as the other individual expects. This is what has given birth to the concept of "political correctness", and this is the domain in which "You have offended me" takes on moral overtones; you have abrogated your social responsibilities in that case. I mention this without endorsing one or the other. (I'll freely admit to thinking the former is generally more scalable and a better idea, but I could easily write an argument in favor of the latter as well. As a personal matter I tend towards a mix of both.) I just don't think you can really understand the full context of this discussion without having this idea clearly in your head.
- jeltz 13y ago
  This is similar to the difference between Ask and Guess cultures. http://lesswrong.com/lw/375/ask_and_guess/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/375/ask_and_guess/
eggnet 13y ago
I'd like to hear some advice from another leader of an open source project of similar magnitude and diversity of contributors. It occurs to me, there is no such other person. Maybe, the way Linus sets standards and decides who to communicate and how, works for his situation. If most people are put off by his philosophy and would rather contribute through intermediaries, well, mission accomplished. Somehow he has to whittle down the 10,000 people who would like to communicate with him constantly to maybe, 20.
cromwellian 13y ago
I find the "I'm Finnish" defense to be somewhat strange. Let's say someone comes from a culture with rampant sexism and racism, and he manages a project by throwing sexist and racist epithets at contributors, would we excuse it? Then why do you get a pass just because you were raised to be a jerk? At some point, you've got to break free of some of the bad personal habits you were raised with.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- jeltz 13y ago
  A cultural relativist view would disagree with you. What is superior about this specific breed of American culture some think Linus should conform to? As a Swede I do not see Linus as being particularly rude. Linus seems to be of the view that people should try to cooperate despite cultural differences instead of trying to remove them and all conform to a single culture (which one should they pick?).
  - cromwellian 13y ago
    Why is being civil all of a sudden an American property?
spiderPig 13y ago
This will sound rosy until something like this actually happens to you. It is very emotionally taxing and traumatic. And worse, once people like Linus start advocating it, all these fan boys (who have in no way made a significant contribution like Linus) will start following suite. Imagine, that guy who setup your repo at work or your QA, come and tell you to diaf and jump off a bridge in front of everyone in the office for making an off by one error. I think people need to realize the insignificance of the things they're doing. Yeah you think you optimized the hell out of your app, ok big guy, take a trip to Africa, no one gives a shit.
everettForth 13y ago
If you don't like working with Linus, the answer is simple: Fork his repository and work without him. He encourages you to do this. He publicly states that people give his fork of the Linux kernel far too much authority, and he even designed a version control system to make it extremely easy for anyone to fork his work. However, contributing to Linus's git repository is not the same as working for an "equal opportunity employer." I think it's unfortunate that, being a dad, and with all that he's given to the world, he doesn't show a little more kindness and empathy. I think this would benefit everyone. Maybe the linux community could just try being super extra nice to Linus, and see if it wears off on him? Every time he says something mean, we try even harder to respond with polite and kind language. I'd like to see that.
dkrich 13y ago
Linus Torvalds not withstanding, I've never understood the "I can't be bothered with your idiotic questions because I'm so Goddamned smart" bullshit. I remember in the nineties if you had a question about Oracle or Unix and ran a search on most message boards all you'd find were snarky comments pissing on people for not following the posting rules or not reading some obscure documentation. It was completely counterproductive and one of the reasons I began to lose interest in development after college. I give a ton of credit to dhh and Joel Spolsky for bringing development to the masses by speaking in terms people not completely socially inept would respond to. As an aside, most developers I've worked with who put on the dickhole computer prodigy facade were just unhappy shitty programmers with zero communication skills. Obviously Linus is not who I'm referring to, but I think buffoonery displayed in abusive emails is emblematic of that attitude and sets a terrible example for developers who aren't Linus Torvalds. I can just picture a thousand mid level managers running around yelling at their reports thinking they're the next Steve Jobs.
Scryptonite 13y ago
While I wouldn't express my vision for linux the exact way Linus does if I were in his position, but I actually agree with Linus' argument. Sharp shouldn't be trying to enforce her cultural bias on Linus; it is just the way he is, and she should just put up with it. Linus, so far, has shown how to move linux forward, albeit Sharp not being comfortable with his colorful/abrasive use of the English language.
gruseom 13y ago
Having experienced abusive behavior in the past, I feel strongly about neither engaging in nor tolerating it. But when I read Linus' rants, I don't get the feeling of someone being abusive. They're vociferous and profane, but they don't seem mean. Instead it feels like there's always a wry chuckle hidden in there (yes, even in "Mauro you are full of shit"), a sort of "You see what I have to put up with" winking to the side, and a kind of nimbleness in how he can take up or drop that tone very quickly. Emotionally violent people, in my experience, aren't like that. They get stuck in anger, and the situation is usually about them personally (they've been insulted, are not getting their due, no one recognizes how smart/gifted/good they are, etc.) I don't read that in Linus. His ego doesn't seem so involved in those rants, which is probably why, even when he's yelling, there's an accompanying lightness. I have no idea how accurate that impression is. One would have to know someone personally to say.
- pfh 13y ago
  This was helpful, thank you.
- foobarbazqux 13y ago
  My feeling is they're still abusive, but I also agree with your analysis. They're so over the top that it's impossible for them to be completely serious.
  - Tobu 13y ago
    > so over the top that it's impossible for them to be completely serious. You are completely correct: https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/ManagementStyle https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/ManagementStyle (ch. 2, but the whole thing is worth reading)
cromwellian 13y ago
Look at some of the private emails sent to Sarah: https://plus.google.com/photos/116960357493251979546/albums/5901285206596474753/5901288095984358098?pid=5901288095984358098&oid=116960357493251979546 https://plus.google.com/photos/116960357493251979546/albums/...

67 points by shawndumas 13y ago

tomp 13y ago

So many words for nothing... Why don't we all just learn to judge others by their behaviour and not by their words? Sometimes, it looks that a well-spoken murderer would be better-perceived than a cursing saint...

steveklabnik 13y ago
Speaking words isn't a form of behavior?
- tomp 13y ago
  It is, but people tend to take it too seriously. Two examples: 1) Nigger. The word in itself is so politically incorrect, that it's inappropriate to use it even in conversations about the word itself! (E.g. to point out the "reverse"-racism, how blacks can use the word "nigger", but whites can't.) 2) Almost any topic that people have a very strong opinion about. E.g. feminism, chauvinism, and using rape threats against Adria Richards - for example, I could argue that people are wrong of accusing those who threatened her to be chauvinists, because if you want to threaten someone, it makes perfect sense to threaten them in the worst possible way - death, rape, hurting their children... so the problem aren't rape threats, but threats in general. But most people only hear the part of the argument "rape threats aren't the problem" and totally disregard the rest of the conversation or even the fact that I don't necessarily believe what I'm saying, I'm just presenting the rational argument! In words of Aristotle: > It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. Many people don't get this. Attacking a good person because they swear is usually the symptom of this.
  - steveklabnik 13y ago
    You're considering words entirely outside of their social, political, and historical context. Context matters: if I point a gun at you, should you get upset? Why, I mean, I haven't actually _done_ anything to you, it's just a threat! Sure in an abstract sense a gun imposed no inherent harm. It's how you use it. Also, this isn't very 'rational,' for example: > so the problem aren't rape threats, but threats in general If threats are a problem then rape threats are a problem.
VMG 13y ago
Cunt. (see?)

shmerl 13y ago

He can't excuse foul language with his inability to express what he wants to convey. His lack of manners is really shocking.

slantyyz 13y ago
>> His lack of manners is really shocking. Yes, it is. But it's his kernel and people choose to work on his kernel, and not a fork, in spite of his well known behaviour. He gets away with his antics because of his rock star status. On the other hand, I find Linus' own behaviour much less bothersome than people who behave like Linus who aren't even remotely at his stature.
jlgreco 13y ago
> His lack of manners is really shocking. Your perspective is not universal.

adamnemecek 13y ago

A developer does not understand sarcasm, more news at 11.

sp332 13y ago
I think it's hyperbole she's missing. "You may need to learn how to shout at people" is not literal, but it's not the opposite of what is meant. It's just exaggerated.
- claudius 13y ago
  The parts about Kroah-Hartman being able to ‘squish’ you were quite obviously sarcasm/banter and not actually meant literally.
- slantyyz 13y ago
  People will always interpret written words in their own way. Interpretation of tone is not universal. I can't tell you how many times I've told people to make a phone call instead of wasting time parsing out the tone of something their clients or coworkers wrote in an e-mail.

twerquie 13y ago

It's clear that Linus, having spent his career working from home in his bathrobe, has absolutely no clue what professionalism means. It's less about the neckties and watercooler politics he imagines and more about treating your peers with basic respect and human dignity. He appears to have the social skills of someone recently released from maximum security prison. He's like a homeschooled kid who bites the other children at birthday parties.

sp332 13y ago
He has a lot of experience doing what works for his particular project. His style works for his most active contributors and lieutenants. I don't think you can say he has under-developed social skills, but they are probably "over-fitted" to a specific social structure.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
  - thezilch 13y ago
    And? What makes something right? Or that there is only one right approach? That's Linus's point; having everyone agree and hug it out is a waste of his time. You don't have to report directly to him to make things happen.
    - twerquie 13y ago
      (I deleted my comment above before I saw your reply) Society has norms for determining right and wrong social behaviour. We teach children not to behave this way at a very early age. I'm sure these societal values aren't completely consistent across cultures and ages, but I'd be surprised if most people you ask don't characterize his language as hostile and abusive. Of course, everyone has a right to be an asshole.
- Joeri 13y ago
  But does his project work despite his abrasive style or because of it? We have to avoid confusing correlation and causation.

ssw1n 13y ago

I will take a 24/7 roaring colleague who roars about all of good and bad to you without reservations than a colleague who will put on smiling face, and back-stabs you when the time is right. Sadly for most people, it is more about Corporate Culture and Interpersonal Skill and Street Smart and blah blah blah than being really competent and getting real things done.

_sabe_ 13y ago

The best kind of friends are those that right out calls me idiot when they see I'm doing something idiotic. It's liberating, because we both know that the harsh tone is not due to my whole being being defined as a idiot, but that specific thing I did was indeed stupid and he/she cared enough about me to tell me straight out...

dntrkv 13y ago
If your friend is acting like an idiot, you pull them aside and tell them so. You don't yell "_SABE_, SHUT THE FUCK UP" in front of the whole world. You can be a good friend without resorting to acting like the asshole that is Linus Torvalds.
johnchristopher 13y ago
There's a difference between "You are an idiot." and "What you did was stupid".
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

if_by_whisky 13y ago

Verbal abuse might be necessarily unprofessional, but nobody is asking Linus to wear a tie. It would be nice if he would just not bully well-intentioned contributers.

thezilch 13y ago
It would be nice if seasoned veterans did not submit crap and regressions. It would be nice if there was documentation coming out of our ears. It would be nice if P always equals NP. It would not be nice if Linus were a saint.
- jfb 13y ago
  One of those things is in his control.
  - jeltz 13y ago
    Yes, making sure that veterans do not submit crap by calling them out on it.

oellegaard 13y ago

The use of words such as violence and abuse is disturbing. We are talking about a guy thats swearing - not a rapist. Sorry, but swearing isn't very uncommon in Scandinavia. I didn't sign an agreement to act according to some US code of conduct - I assume Linus is feeling the same way. Although I certainly wouldn't do what he does, I respect him standing up against the American CoC mafia. I heard Steve Jobs was very rude to his employees, if they did a poor job as well - I guess all of this happened inside the Apple HQ as well - its just easier to be angry with someone who is not your boss (oh, and if everything happens on a mailing list).

wavefunction 13y ago
We drop motherfucker and other "curse" words in my US office all day long here. Mostly due to some bullshit coming down the fucking pike from some dumbass account manager who doesn't know their ass from a hole in the ground.
- tptacek 13y ago
  We're users and admirers of profanity here as well. My admiration of profane language runs so deep that it is a parenting problem; my kids swear, we don't punish it, and they risk trouble at school. Which, fine. Sarah Sharp isn't criticizing Torvalds merely for using profanity. That's not her argument at all. Also, consider the different impact the same words have when you're using them in person and the target of those words can assess body language. Consider also whether every person in your office is someone you'd feel equally comfortable using that language with.
- zalew 13y ago
  Loosely related anegdote: Not so long ago I heard of a study here in Poland (we curse like sailors) about which parts of society swear the most. The first group were the uneducated, bottom class workers, etc., just because they just don't know better how to express themselves. Obvious, right? At this point you think it will decrease linearally, but as it turns out, the second most cursing group were the well educated, people in position, all sorts of groups you would 'expect better', yet they are confident enough about their intelligence and vocabulary they don't feel the need to apply artificial boundaries around their means of expression. The ones who curse the least are the ones in between - because they are the ones who care enough to pretend and want to separate themselves from the lower classes - a matter of being paranoid about their social perception supposedly originating from insecurity. It's beyond me why people expect Linus to beat around the bushes like he were on an audition with the queen when he's not in a position to care enough to bend over third party social standards.

mrt0mat0 13y ago

this is why you have to keep mainstream out of technology. We're going to start acting like gossip girl. I've worked in all different fields, and IT has been the most efficient field by far, mostly because of the lack of coddling. I've done the nice thing, and all it does is create more work for me. Being more direct, and yes, rude may not be your favorite way to communicate, but it is direct, and at the end you have no doubts about what needs to be done, and what people consider important. Plus, people are a bit sensitive

moomin 13y ago

He's wrong, the behaviour isn't acceptable. He's right: he can run Linux however he wants. It'd be a bit more honest to say "I can be a jerk because I wrote Linux." than all of this moral relativist survival of the fittest macho bullshit, though.

slantyyz 13y ago
>> He's wrong, the behaviour isn't acceptable. I agree that he's wrong, but clearly his behaviour is accepted by his colleagues, because they continue to work on his kernel.

dobbsbob 13y ago

Why is everybody so concerned about Linus being who he is? Every month there's yet another article about 'rude open source developers'. I thought we were hackers and not conformists. I could care less what Linus says it's his kernel, his project, his life, his personality. Linux is not a job, it has no sensitivity training or rules of social conduct. If you don't like it don't volunteer. Nothing stopping you from forking the kernel, developing it yourself and calling it Sensetivlix: The GNUspeak conformity project.

VMG 13y ago
> Nothing stopping you from forking the kernel, developing it yourself and calling it Sensetivlix: The GNUspeak conformity project. Weirder things have happened
avens19 13y ago
You're absolutely right that it's totally up to him and he can act the way he likes, but I think the point of the article is that if you're claiming that open-source is a "community" endeavour, then perhaps being a giant asshole isn't the best means of accomplishing that end. He is discouraging potential developers from wanting to work with him for exactly the reasons you mentioned: it's not a job, there is no pay, he's not your boss. The last thing I want when volunteering my free time is some guy belittling me. As has been mentioned in this thread, there are ways of accomplishing the same task while being a reasonable human being. His ego and entitlement are justifying his behaviour and it's bullshit.
- hamburglar 13y ago
  I'd say open source on the whole is a "community" endeavor, but individual open source projects are not necessarily. There are countless projects that are a single author who accepts bugfixes here and there but in general it's a one-man show. The linux kernel is like that: it's Linus' project that he lets some people help with. It's a dictatorship, largely ego-driven, and he has the last word on any philosophical, design, architectural, or even political decision. For better or for worse.
NegativeK 13y ago

dkarl 13y ago

She says she will "roar back" and considers that a threat of retaliation that might deter them, but she is talking to people who don't mind roaring at all. She really is missing the point of cultural sensitivity -- cultures that are louder and more confrontational aren't required to play by the rules of cultures that work more quietly, just to cooperate with them. There isn't any accusation here that Linus unfairly judges the work or contributions of people who don't "roar." They just want him to stop yelling because their cultural bias causes them to perceive him as a threatening and potentially violent person.

tptacek 13y ago
The premise of your argument is that it's reasonable for a project manager to invoke "Finnish Culture" as a justification for calling people on their team names and singling them out for expletive-laced approbation in public. I don't know a lot of Finns, but do you honestly think a typical Finnish person would be comfortable with having their culture summed up that way?
- hamburglar 13y ago
  I thought the Finnish culture excuse was pretty weak, but I think he'd be perfectly justified in saying "I don't plan to stop cursing at people who I think deserve it. If that means nobody wants to work on my project, then so be it." Because it's pretty obvious that there are plenty of people with enough enthusiasm for working on the kernel that they're willing to work with a profane curmudgeon, or perhaps people who do it because they actually enjoy that type of environment. And trying to frame this in terms of Linus being an abuser or advocating violence or preying on the weak is just extremely dumb and insulting to people who are actually victims of real abuse. It's emails on a mailing list calling your code shitty and/or calling you stupid for writing shitty code. For fuck's sake, if you're victimized by that, maybe every open source project isn't for you.
  - tptacek 13y ago
    She also didn't say she was "victimized" in any way.

tptacek 13y ago

Sarah Sharp is not messing around; here's her commit log: http://git.kernel.org/cgit/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/log/?qt=author&q=Sarah+Sharp http://git.kernel.org/cgit/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.g... She's a USB developer and it looks like the primary maintainer of the Linux xhci driver.

brokenparser 13y ago
Yep, she wrote it. I know because it says so in TFA.
- tptacek 13y ago
  Neat. I know it from looking at her commits.

Zikes 13y ago

I dream of working for/with someone like Linus Torvalds. Seriously. There is absolutely no pretense here, no guessing, no fakery. If you work with Linus, you know exactly where you stand. He doesn't hold anything back, including criticisms that are critical to your own growth as a developer. And there can be no question - NONE - that what he does WORKS. Linux is on BILLIONS of devices worldwide, affecting BILLIONS of peoples' lives in as literal a sense as can be imagined. You have to be strict about that sort of software, you have to be hard, you have to have a very sharp edge, and you absolutely cannot afford to make mistakes. You don't have to like it, and you don't have to agree with it, but you certainly don't walk into Linus Torvalds' kitchen and tell him it's too hot.

tptacek 13y ago
How many of those billions of installs were enabled by Torvalds telling Mauro Carvalho Chehab to "SHUT THE FUCK UP" after Mauro tried to explain a previous patch? Try to be as specific as you can, thanks.
- Zikes 13y ago
  All of them, and you're welcome.
- johnbm 13y ago
  How many of the people whining about this problem have ever submitted a Linux kernel patch or considered it and said they wouldn't because of him? Name names, thanks.
  - DanBC 13y ago
    Do your own research. Various mailing lists are littered with the names of people who've dropped out because of toxic working environment.
  - thesnider 13y ago
    I will never submit a patch to the linux kernel, specifically, and only, because I cannot support Linus's attitude towards mailing list discussions.

cromwellian 13y ago

I see a lot of confirmation bias in these kinds of threads. Because Linux is a success, it must be because of Linus's particular brand of being a jerk, for the same reason that Apple is a success because Steve Jobs was a jerk. That is, an effective leader must be a jerk. But there are lots of other companies that are successful where people don't act like jackasses. For example, Google culture is anti-jackass, Googley means not being a dickhead. If you have a problem, explain what's wrong calmly and coherently, it's more efficient. Simply telling someone that they, or their code, is a piece of shit is not likely to be as efficient. IBM is another, when I worked at T.J. Watson, people were very civil. Civility is not about being "fake" or "politically correct", it's about being able to communicate your position by reason instead of by emotion, by shouting, by abuse, by reptilian brain. Linus gets a lot of leeway because of his work on Linux, and we will forever be thankful for that. But I don't believe good works earns you a pass from criticism of behavior. The founders of the United States are forever thanked for the Constitution, but that doesn't let them off for being slaveholders. I expect there will be some reflexive downvoting on this for criticizing the prophet, but honestly, Linus makes geeks look bad socially. Say what you will about Richard Stallman, there are lots of things he says I disagree with, but he says them with integrity and positivism and love, and not with angry denouncements.

seivan 13y ago
Could you enlighten me, what did Stallman write about Jobs again?
- loser777 13y ago
  "As Chicago Mayor Harold Washington said of the corrupt former Mayor Daley, 'I'm not glad he's dead, but I'm glad he's gone.' Nobody deserves to have to die – not Jobs, not Mr. Bill, not even people guilty of bigger evils than theirs. But we all deserve the end of Jobs' malign influence on people's computing." Clearly, that was an angry denouncement... /sarcasm
  - seivan 13y ago
    No, it was passive aggressive bullshit, hidden in eloquent crap. The very thing Linus tries to avoid.

brunnsbe 13y ago

I'm just wondering if Linux would have been different it it wouldn't have been built on this "management by Perkele". I personally think there are a lot of competent developers around the world that could have contributed to the kernel but chose not to because of Linus style of communication Personally I uust feel embarrased by his behaviour, it's not typical for working in an international environment

grannyg00se 13y ago

"Sharp wrote: Linus Torvalds is advocating for physical intimidation and violence." Please, show me where Linus is advocating for this. Sounds absurd.

didocmkcdkj 13y ago
Seriously, she had to be a fucking woman. Keep in mind that she made it about gender.
- to3m 13y ago
  And good on you, kind sir - or, perhaps, fair ma'am - for not making it about gender yourself.

zalew 13y ago

Why am I not surprised the majority of people complaining and getting offended in the name of third-party developers are American? It's not like we don't have our dose of pc on the old continent, but you'd be surprised how much less of a fuck is given about such issues around here.

Taranis 13y ago
It's because we in the US have had actual intelligence beat out of us in our schools so that garbage like this is important. I think Linus is right on the money with this.
- zalew 13y ago
  You will enjoy 'Finland phenomenon', a documentary about their education system, if you haven't seen it yet.

dyno12345 13y ago

Am I the only one that thinks both sides are over the top? Linus is overly abrasive and I can't say I would want to work with someone like that, and at the same time, Sarah Sharp and Linus' critics are exaggerating and being overly dramatic (e.g., Linus is "advocating violence") and I wouldn't want to work with someone like that, either.

future_grad 13y ago
Seems like everything is just blown up to me. Are someone's words making you feel bad? Give it back to them or stop your crying. Why bother whining about it publicly? If people don't want to stand up to a single man by themselves then do you really think ganging up on him will solve anything for them individually?
tome 13y ago
I subscribe to your point of view.
hamburglar 13y ago
I totally agree with this. I think Linus is perfectly within his rights to want a project mailing list where he can just speak his mind and be an asshole when he wants to, and at the same time, I suspect that it isn't great for the project in the long term. If Linus being an asshole is a critical component to the linux kernel's success, it's doomed.

didocmkcdkj 13y ago

I'm seriously starting to resent Sarah. Freaking cry baby.

vowelless 13y ago

> Please be sensitive to _my_ culture too. > Google "management by perkele". > Do you really want to oppress a minority? Because Finns are a minority compared to almost any other country. If you want to talk cultural sensitivity, I'll join you. But my culture includes cursing. That made me chuckle. Based on my experience having worked with a few Fins; they are quite efficient and straight to the point. There is also a Quora answer [1] on why Nokia phones are so durable. Israelis have a similar mentality. From [2]: > Whenever there was a bombing, Israelis would run TO the blast to bandage people and help out. They risked their lives without a second thought to help each other with an 'of course' kind of attitude. Israelis don't even realize this is unique to them. Most just silently believe everyone shares the same attitude toward helping people in danger. > When you're in that kind of society, fake politeness is actually offensive. I've also experienced this mentality with Punjabi Sikhs. [1] http://qr.ae/INWWl http://qr.ae/INWWl [2] http://www.quora.com/Israeli-Culture/Why-are-Israeli-people-so-hard-to-work-with http://www.quora.com/Israeli-Culture/Why-are-Israeli-people-...

Ras_ 13y ago
I believe that this Israeli-Finnish mentality of informality and "to the point" attitude has something to do with both still having military draft, besides the usual being small, educated, remote and history of living under threat. In both countries there is remarkably small difference in perceived (and acted upon) status, say between prime minister and common man should they engage in casual conversation.

jerf 13y ago

The core problem here is that there are two different ideas about tolerance in play here, which I think is poorly understood as people tend to fling around the term without understanding that the word can describe almost diametrically opposed things. Linus is advocating for what you might call personal tolerance; as a human being, you should be prepared for the fact that not everyone in the world is like you, not everyone shares your standards or your culture, and that some people may be abrasive by your standards in a way that is acceptable in their culture or microculture. (And while it is talked about less, the alternative can occur too, where you encounter a culture that is more deferential than you are used too, and similar misunderstandings can easily occur.) It is for each person to accept these differences and learn to deal with them. The American left/liberalism has embraced a different definition of "tolerance", what I might call social or societal tolerance, which is that each individual is responsible for learning what is offensive to the person you are dealing with, and treating them as the other individual expects. This is what has given birth to the concept of "political correctness", and this is the domain in which "You have offended me" takes on moral overtones; you have abrogated your social responsibilities in that case. I mention this without endorsing one or the other. (I'll freely admit to thinking the former is generally more scalable and a better idea, but I could easily write an argument in favor of the latter as well. As a personal matter I tend towards a mix of both.) I just don't think you can really understand the full context of this discussion without having this idea clearly in your head.

jeltz 13y ago
This is similar to the difference between Ask and Guess cultures. http://lesswrong.com/lw/375/ask_and_guess/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/375/ask_and_guess/

eggnet 13y ago

I'd like to hear some advice from another leader of an open source project of similar magnitude and diversity of contributors. It occurs to me, there is no such other person. Maybe, the way Linus sets standards and decides who to communicate and how, works for his situation. If most people are put off by his philosophy and would rather contribute through intermediaries, well, mission accomplished. Somehow he has to whittle down the 10,000 people who would like to communicate with him constantly to maybe, 20.

cromwellian 13y ago

I find the "I'm Finnish" defense to be somewhat strange. Let's say someone comes from a culture with rampant sexism and racism, and he manages a project by throwing sexist and racist epithets at contributors, would we excuse it? Then why do you get a pass just because you were raised to be a jerk? At some point, you've got to break free of some of the bad personal habits you were raised with.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
jeltz 13y ago
A cultural relativist view would disagree with you. What is superior about this specific breed of American culture some think Linus should conform to? As a Swede I do not see Linus as being particularly rude. Linus seems to be of the view that people should try to cooperate despite cultural differences instead of trying to remove them and all conform to a single culture (which one should they pick?).
- cromwellian 13y ago
  Why is being civil all of a sudden an American property?

spiderPig 13y ago

This will sound rosy until something like this actually happens to you. It is very emotionally taxing and traumatic. And worse, once people like Linus start advocating it, all these fan boys (who have in no way made a significant contribution like Linus) will start following suite. Imagine, that guy who setup your repo at work or your QA, come and tell you to diaf and jump off a bridge in front of everyone in the office for making an off by one error. I think people need to realize the insignificance of the things they're doing. Yeah you think you optimized the hell out of your app, ok big guy, take a trip to Africa, no one gives a shit.

everettForth 13y ago

If you don't like working with Linus, the answer is simple: Fork his repository and work without him. He encourages you to do this. He publicly states that people give his fork of the Linux kernel far too much authority, and he even designed a version control system to make it extremely easy for anyone to fork his work. However, contributing to Linus's git repository is not the same as working for an "equal opportunity employer." I think it's unfortunate that, being a dad, and with all that he's given to the world, he doesn't show a little more kindness and empathy. I think this would benefit everyone. Maybe the linux community could just try being super extra nice to Linus, and see if it wears off on him? Every time he says something mean, we try even harder to respond with polite and kind language. I'd like to see that.

dkrich 13y ago

Linus Torvalds not withstanding, I've never understood the "I can't be bothered with your idiotic questions because I'm so Goddamned smart" bullshit. I remember in the nineties if you had a question about Oracle or Unix and ran a search on most message boards all you'd find were snarky comments pissing on people for not following the posting rules or not reading some obscure documentation. It was completely counterproductive and one of the reasons I began to lose interest in development after college. I give a ton of credit to dhh and Joel Spolsky for bringing development to the masses by speaking in terms people not completely socially inept would respond to. As an aside, most developers I've worked with who put on the dickhole computer prodigy facade were just unhappy shitty programmers with zero communication skills. Obviously Linus is not who I'm referring to, but I think buffoonery displayed in abusive emails is emblematic of that attitude and sets a terrible example for developers who aren't Linus Torvalds. I can just picture a thousand mid level managers running around yelling at their reports thinking they're the next Steve Jobs.

Scryptonite 13y ago

While I wouldn't express my vision for linux the exact way Linus does if I were in his position, but I actually agree with Linus' argument. Sharp shouldn't be trying to enforce her cultural bias on Linus; it is just the way he is, and she should just put up with it. Linus, so far, has shown how to move linux forward, albeit Sharp not being comfortable with his colorful/abrasive use of the English language.

gruseom 13y ago

Having experienced abusive behavior in the past, I feel strongly about neither engaging in nor tolerating it. But when I read Linus' rants, I don't get the feeling of someone being abusive. They're vociferous and profane, but they don't seem mean. Instead it feels like there's always a wry chuckle hidden in there (yes, even in "Mauro you are full of shit"), a sort of "You see what I have to put up with" winking to the side, and a kind of nimbleness in how he can take up or drop that tone very quickly. Emotionally violent people, in my experience, aren't like that. They get stuck in anger, and the situation is usually about them personally (they've been insulted, are not getting their due, no one recognizes how smart/gifted/good they are, etc.) I don't read that in Linus. His ego doesn't seem so involved in those rants, which is probably why, even when he's yelling, there's an accompanying lightness. I have no idea how accurate that impression is. One would have to know someone personally to say.

pfh 13y ago
This was helpful, thank you.
foobarbazqux 13y ago
My feeling is they're still abusive, but I also agree with your analysis. They're so over the top that it's impossible for them to be completely serious.
- Tobu 13y ago
  > so over the top that it's impossible for them to be completely serious. You are completely correct: https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/ManagementStyle https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/ManagementStyle (ch. 2, but the whole thing is worth reading)

cromwellian 13y ago

Look at some of the private emails sent to Sarah: https://plus.google.com/photos/116960357493251979546/albums/5901285206596474753/5901288095984358098?pid=5901288095984358098&oid=116960357493251979546 https://plus.google.com/photos/116960357493251979546/albums/...