7 ms·

Verbal abuse on LKML

43 points by psibi 13y ago

psibi 13y ago
Complete discussion here: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel.stable/58049/focus%3D58062 http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel.stable/58049/focu...
- jabiko 13y ago
  Start of the verbal abuse discussion: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel.stable/58049/focus=1525074 http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel.stable/58049/focu...
  - alemhnan 13y ago
    http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel.stable/58049/focus=1525074 http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel.stable/58049/focu... 'Come to the dark side, Sarah. We have cookies.' -- Linus
  - shib71 13y ago
    I'm not familiar with LKML or any of the developers, but Sarah is very impressive in this thread. Every time someone else tries to shift the topic, she brings the conversation back on course. She's right about a minimum standard of civility being crucial in email. Even if no one on the list is personally affected by the language (a big if for a large list), a single vitriolic email can poison the atmosphere for days.
ddalex_ro 13y ago
Wtf, now we fight the way Linus is dictating things around ? Next, we'll be down to having respect for colleagues and maintain civility in all cases.
- DannyBee 13y ago
  In some ways, Linus is not wrong. Fake civility and fake respect do not usually help anyone. This does not mean you run around screaming at people, usually, that gets you fired. However, these folks have formed their own community, and set the rules of conduct for it. If she wants to try to change those, great. But this should be a discussion for members of that community, not one of trying to get the world writ large to come down on them. (At least from where I sit, she is trying to do the latter, rather than the former. Maybe i'm misreading it though) Essentially, she wants the community to change not because the community wants to, but because everyone else outside the community wants them to. This seems, without thinking very hard, quite wrong. She always retains the option of starting her own community, etc. Note that even the law recognizes the issues here in the US. Generally, small non-governmental groups can't be forced to open up membership or to avoid discrimination. So the local old boys club generally can't be forced to accept women, for example.
  - icebraining 13y ago
    Not sure why would you comment on discrimination law; I'm sure Linus is very egalitarian in his yelling ;)
    - DannyBee 13y ago
      I'm just pointing out that even the law doesn't want to try to solve this problem, and it tries to solve everything. :)
  - PavlovsCat 13y ago
    In some ways, Linus is not wrong. Fake civility and fake respect do not usually help anyone. That's still a strawman, and not a valid response to anything she actually said. But this should be a discussion for members of that community, not one of trying to get the world writ large to come down on them. (At least from where I sit, she is trying to do the latter, rather than the former. Maybe i'm misreading it though) Have you read the actual mailing list discussion? She's rather patient, polite and constructive, while Linus spouts mostly BS like the above strawman. So how do you come up with that "agenda" of hers? If you can't talk with some people, the next best thing is to find people with brains to talk about those people. There is nothing wrong with that, it should be encouraged. Essentially, she wants the community to change not because the community wants to, but because everyone else outside the community wants them to. This seems, without thinking very hard, quite wrong. Then try thinking, it could go a little something like this: maybe, just maybe, she's the first mentally grown up person to stroll deep enough into that mailing list to ever raise the point. This is not wrong, just awkward, and "that's just the way I am" is a response fit for a 5 year old.
aclevernickname 13y ago
So, can anyone tell me what Sarah Sharp has contributed to the kernel?
- kingkilr 13y ago
  What does that have to do with anything?
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
    - icebraining 13y ago
      Don't they? How do you know?
      - beachstartup 13y ago
        because this issue comes up all the time and in the end nobody gives a shit because linus runs the show and is basically a dictator.
- Zr40 13y ago
  There are other ways of contributing to a project besides committing code changes.
- RyanZAG 13y ago
  What role do you play in the community and/or what subsystem(s) do you work on? I'm the Linux kernel xHCI driver maintainer. I own Linux USB 3.0 support, and I send my patches up to Greg Kroah-Hartman, who is the USB subsystem maintainer. Where do you get your paycheck? I work in Intel's Open Source Technology Center, along with a bunch of other cool Linux kernel developers. -- Sourced from https://www.linux.com/news/special-feature/linux-developers/593966-30-linux-kernel-developers-in-30-weeks-sarah-sharp https://www.linux.com/news/special-feature/linux-developers/...
  - 13y ago
beachstartup 13y ago
this issue comes up every couple of years - these guys write linux, you can't make them do anything. they are untouchable and will do/say whatever the hell they want. linus especially - is a grown ass man and does this in person too, as is his prerogative. anyone see his github speech? he stands up in front of 300 people and calls them all idiots.
- icebraining 13y ago
  Sarah Sharp is part of the people who "write linux" - she's the xHCI driver maintainer at Intel.
  - beachstartup 13y ago
    if alan cox couldn't get linus to change, how the hell does she think she will? i honestly don't get it.
    - maqr 13y ago
      I'm not sure how many people it would take for Linus to change his ways, but I'd guess that it'd take some kind of intervention, and that seems exceptionally unlikely. When Linus refuses to change, which he has and will continue to do, I'm not sure what the next step is to squash his sometimes impolite manner. Surely you can't ban Linus from the LKML or convince the Linux Foundation to remove him. For better or worse, Linus and his rants are here to stay. This #kernelhackers #abuse thing is entertaining to watch, but nobody should seriously expect a change here. I suppose it's FOSS, so people who agree with Sarah's position could form their own separate fork and mailing list. More likely though is that every time Linus posts another rant about how poor of a job somebody did, they'll reply with some kind of shaming of his impoliteness, which Linus will simply ignore and nothing will change.
  - lawnchair_larry 13y ago
    While this is a great contribution, and more than I have done for open source, this is a far cry from "writing linux". Also, it's her job at Intel.
davidw 13y ago
I like Rusty Russell's point of view: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/1525480 http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/1525480 " You have to be harsh with code: People mistake politeness for uncertainty. Whenever I said 'I prefer if you XYZ' some proportion didn't realize I meant 'Don't argue unless you have new facts: do XYZ or go away.' This wastes my time, so I started being explicit. But be gentle with people. You've already called their baby ugly."
- kingkilr 13y ago
  This is a false dichotomy. I do a lot of code review, both in my day job and for many open source projects. I've never had to verbally abuse someone to explain the changes I wanted to see in a patch. (OSS projects I've done code review on include: Django, PyPy, Topaz, CPython, Twisted, and OpenStack)
  - mercurial 13y ago
    Absolutely. There is a place for "I would prefer that XYZ". It often means "you have a convention slightly different than mine, I'd rather you change your code to fit my style but that's not a big issue". However, you can be very explicit by saying "It's a bad idea to do XYZ and here is why, this is what I suggest instead". Bonus point if your code review system can flag a comment as "Defect" to make it more explicit. It does not need to involve four-letter words or cussing in Finnish.
    - davidw 13y ago
      I can understand not always having time to explain why something is a bad idea when you're working on very high profile code. I think Rusty's right: you can be unequivocally harsh with the code, but not swear at or call people morons.
      - mercurial 13y ago
        Even if you don't have time to explain, "This is a bad/dangerous idea" is enough to get the point across, without resorting to swear words (on the other hand "I would prefer that" is clearly not much of an incentive to change things) or being rude ("or go away" is definitely rude in my book).
acqq 13y ago
Sarah according to those who know more than me wrote "the entire USB3 stack" and then in one discussion http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel.stable/58049/focus=1525074 http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel.stable/58049/focu... thus reacted on Linus claims: On Fri, 12 Jul 2013 08:22:27 -0700, Linus wrote: "Greg, the reason you get a lot of stable patches seems to be that you make it easy to act as a door-mat. Clearly at least some people say 'I know this patch isn't important enough to send to Linus, but I know Greg will silently accept it after the fact, so I'll just wait and mark it for stable'. You may need to learn to shout at people." Seriously, guys? Is this what we need in order to get improve -stable? Linus Torvalds is advocating for physical intimidation and violence. Ingo Molnar and Linus are advocating for verbal abuse. Not _fucking_ cool. Violence, whether it be physical intimidation, verbal threats or verbal abuse is not acceptable. Keep it professional on the mailing lists. Let's discuss this at Kernel Summit where we can at least yell at each other in person. Yeah, just try yelling at me about this. I'll roar right back, louder, for all the people who lose their voice when they get yelled at by top maintainers. I won't be the nice girl anymore. I think she's definitely right. Keep it professional. The implementation of any piece of something can be stupid. It's often not because we want to make it that way, or because it's stupid as it is, it's stupid in a given context. Somebody like Linus is somebody who must handle at that level. There bluntness can help. Still it's about the context, not about what people who produce work are or aren't. Just don't call people stupid, don't intimidate, threat or abuse them personally.
- icebraining 13y ago
  Linus' reply: Because if you want me to "act professional", I can tell you that I'm not interested. I'm sitting in my home office wearign a bathrobe. The same way I'm not going to start wearing ties, I'm *also* not going to buy into the fake politeness, the lying, the office politics and backstabbing, the passive aggressiveness, and the buzzwords. Because THAT is what "acting professionally" results in: people resort to all kinds of really nasty things because they are forced to act out their normal urges in unnatural ways. http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel.stable/58049/focus=58317 http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel.stable/58049/focu...
  - 13y ago
izietto 13y ago
This is my position: Words are just a way to express something we want to communicate, and their meaning must be considered within the context they are expressed. When Linus says something like "This piece-of-shit commit is marked for stable, but you clearly never even test-compiled it, did you?" https://lkml.org/lkml/2013/7/13/132 https://lkml.org/lkml/2013/7/13/132 , he clearly has an insane reaction to something that at the end isn't nothing more than a normal human mistake. But what his exaggerated reactions want to really express is "I INSANELY care about kernel quality, so I have INSANE reactions to actions that lower its value", and in this way he subliminally transmits its kernel care to the subject of the rant. What do you think about my interpretation?
- PavlovsCat 13y ago
  Considering the he "despises being nice" because "that's just how he is", and can't express what he actually wants to say even though he was able to fucking create Linux, then I think he simply fulfills the cliché of the one-sided nerd: good with machines, bad with people, to the point of wanting people to be like machines. I can sympathize with that to a degree, but not really. Just because I share the sickness doesn't mean it's not a sickness.
  - izietto 13y ago
    I think he succeeds to express what he actually wants to say, he just doesn't talk with your conscience, IMHO rightly: the emotions towards something is not a conscience matter, so it is worthless to communicate them to your conscience; it's better to talk with the part of your brain involved with emotions. About "despises being nice" this seem to me just a trait of an egocentric personality, which is fairly common in our individualist society between overachiever people (Steve Jobs is a classic example). I don't mean it is a pleasant behaviour, but frankly as citizen of a west country I'm used to it.
neya 13y ago
I share Lucas De Marchi's perspective: I see lots of strong words in LKML. So much that in some other lists there's the say "hey, this isn't LKML and this behavior is not appreciated here". However in this case I don't see it. Linus and Greg were in no way calling out for violence, but instead making joke about it. What I am seeing more often than I'd like is people losing the ability to joke at ourselves. For me over reaction is as disturbing as the strong words. Go to the link you pointed out here, read it again. Knowing the people who wrote them can't you imagine their troll face? Honestly, she's just stirring the community into aggression mode and I'm not overly fond of what may follow.
- acqq 13y ago
  Can you please explain how is a pledge for not using personal abuses "stirring into aggression mode?"
whalenow 13y ago
Does she read Hacker News?! Why on Earth would she like LKML to be some kind of politically correct cesspool like this forum?
- _pmf_ 13y ago
  That's a very thorough argument. In a very high-volume medium like the LKML where it is necessary to filter out relevant stuff, you usually don't want anything that provokes lengthy discussions, as these waste the time and patience of hundreds of people, including the submitter himself. Clearly stating "fuck off" instead of "yeah, your contribution is really nice, you have some nice additions, however ..." when the maintainer will definitely reject the contribution saves everyone's time.
- cyphax 13y ago
  What is it with people and binary arguments? She isn't asking for LKML to be turned into a politically correct cesspool. Not being an asshole does NOT have to equal being politically correct. She's advocating clarity WITHOUT verbal abuse. That's SO easy to do: if you filter out the f-bombs that are directed at people as well as the STFU's and you're there. There is so much in between verbal abuse and killing each other with kindness, it's not even funny. I find it sad that even Torvalds thinks in black and white like that. And then he hides behind "that's just who I am". Whatever. Very mature. I wouldn't even consider becoming a Linux kernel maintainer, much like I would quit my job the day my boss decides to treat his employees this way.
venomsnake 13y ago
We should be allowed to insult each other. In general. But here is the thing - if should be non discriminatory. The bullshit and idiocy should be called on spot without taking into consideration the race, gender,age, color and attitude towards my little pony of the offender. So as long as Linus treats everyone as a inferior retard until proven otherwise it is ok with me. I think racism and sexism (and lots of other isms that split people on us and the others) don't have place in a society but I will fight very hard for the right of the people to express misanthropy. TL DR: As long as Linus insults everybody it is ok.
- PavlovsCat 13y ago
  In the words of Linus, that's bullshit, and you're stupid for even suggesting it. If hating a subset of something is bad, then how is hating the whole better? Because it's more "fair"? It's also a lot more destructive, and misanthropy could be argued to include all -isms you could name, and then some. Here's a thought, misanthropy is always projected self-hate, delusions of grandeur are just inferiority complexes, and Linus could use a shrink. Who doesn't, right? So I'm not judging. But if you're for calling a spade a spade, let's call a spade a spade.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - aclevernickname 13y ago
    > But if you're for calling a spade a spade, let's call a spade a spade. it's bad enough with the sexist comments in here, perhaps we could avoid the racist ones as well? See what I did there? how is that different from what Sarah Sharp did?
bjourne 13y ago
Oh the dhhraaaama!
nawitus 13y ago
She could've presented her critique without turning it into a gender issue: >I won't be the nice girl anymore.
- nawitus 13y ago
  This is also pretty telling: >Snort. Perhaps we haven't interacted very often, but I have never seen you be nice in person at KS. Well, there was that one time you came to me and very quietly explained you had a problem with your USB 3.0 ports, but you came off as "scared to talk to a girl kernel developer" more than "I'm trying to be polite". While verbal abuse is not acceptable, neither is the male-shaming language she is using there.
  - maqr 13y ago
    Wow. How can she possibly think that's an acceptable thing to say in a thread about politeness that she started? Now I'm beginning to wonder if I understand her complaint at all.
- samwillis 13y ago
  She is not making it into a gender issue. That statement is just the same as if it was a guy making a stand and wrote: I won't be the nice guy anymore.
  - nawitus 13y ago
    The term 'nice guy' is also often used in discussions about gender. Of course that's not the case always. If I hear someone use the term 'nice guy' without context then my first guess is that it's about gender.
- James_Duval 13y ago
  I don't understand how that turns it into a gender issue. Should she have said "nice guy" instead?
  - Cthulhu_ 13y ago
miles 13y ago
Wow - on a rare visit to Slashdot, stumbled across this incredibly insightful comment by Charliemopps[1]: Ironically his argument about fake politeness is EXACTLY what he's getting. People are pretending that his horrible behavior is acceptable just because they don't want to get on his bad side. Acting professionally is not about politeness, it's about not muddying up the conversation with information that's not useful. [1] http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3977141&cid=44291653 http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3977141&cid=442916... EDIT: Had to add one more gem from the Slashdot discussion, this one by Culture20[2]: It's not "fake politeness" to stop using abusive language, it's normal politeness. [2] http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3977141&cid=44290909 http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3977141&cid=442909...
- _pmf_ 13y ago
  > People are pretending that his horrible behavior is acceptable just because they don't want to get on his bad side. I think this is wrong. This argument does not make sense for people who are not in any way directly involved with kernel contributions, but have nevertheless formed an opinion about Linus. I, personally, find his antics to be quite entertaining and refreshing. Reacting strongly to small technical detail is something that should be encouraged, not banished.
- markdown 13y ago
  > People are pretending that his horrible behavior is acceptable just because they don't want to get on his bad side. Or maybe they're just willing to accept the occasional insult from a guy they respect, admire, and who has done so much good for them. Kinda like how people forgive Bill Clinton for lying to them about his private shenanigans because he was a damn good president overall.
  - Ygg2 13y ago
    Or maybe, just maybe you can be a smart, contributing person without being a raging douche bag.
    - 13y ago
xentronium 13y ago
I've been wondering, when Linus expresses his anger at different people on mailing lists, does he mean it? When he calls someone a fucking idiot and tells them to shut the fuck up, does he really want to offend the person or his actions/code? I feel like it's the latter, i.e. when you are called a moron, you probably did something stupid. On the other hand, once you understand this, doesn't it devalue all the harsh words, i.e. "moron is new horrible"? For words to be insulting they have to be used sparingly, right? I am not a subscriber of LKML, so I am not sure, but I think that Linus understands this and doesn't abuse/insult anyone too often, or it will not be too effective. Otherwise, everyone would consider him a dick instead of a blunt and straightforward person, wouldn't they?
bsaul 13y ago
<offtopic> The mailing list threads she mentions both speak about a fix that creates regression and linus getting angry at it. Which makes me wonder : with that philosophy, i'm pretty sure the linux kernel code is filled with hooks to keep the old behavior in some cases and use the new one in new cases (you sometimes have to break things). Is there any plan of having a non-backward compatible linux kernel one day, or just to start deprecating features ?
andyhmltn 13y ago
I don't agree with verbal abuse, but correct me if I'm wrong is this really classified as that? http://marc.info/?l=linux-acpi&m=136157944603147&w=2 http://marc.info/?l=linux-acpi&m=136157944603147&w=2 The only reason I can see that being abuse is swearing. Swearing shouldn't be seen as offensive. It's just a good way of expressing certain points.
icebraining 13y ago
It's interesting that this story has just been heavily flagged. Into sank from 3rd position to 45th in five minutes: http://hnrankings.info/6050443/ http://hnrankings.info/6050443/
ohwp 13y ago
It's all about "constructive criticism". We all know Linus is right most of the time. But I think his abusive tone isn't constructive and won't motivate people to do a better job. Edit: "Adopting the most effective style of criticism should be tempered by the cultural context, the recipient's personality, and nature of the relationship between provider and recipient." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_criticism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_criticism
_sabe_ 13y ago
I would think Linus has some form of light asperger, and when he calls someone "dick head" thats not aggression against a physical person but in this case to the fact that someone pushed code that does not build. He's to rational to mix up personal feelings against somebody and the quality of the code. The only way to get offended when Linus goes of in a rant is to think that he does. Also maybe it's the fact that I'm Finnish too, but the best teachers from school I remember where those that valued perfection, and I don't think they raised their voice to abuse one, but to make a point... I can still remember a computer teacher who went bananas every time someone used the carriage return in the middle of a paragraph, and physically broke of the key from the keyboard, just to show that It wasn't supposed to be used that way. Maybe some people got offended or scared, but to me it stuck, the importance between separating visual appearance and semantics...
- Ygg2 13y ago
  And maybe, all of his swearing is a form of Tourette's syndrome. Let's not rationalize it here, I doubt either one of us holds a PhD in psychology.
  - aclevernickname 13y ago
    Those of us that actually have Tourette's syndrome really get pissed when people confuse it with Coprolalia [1]. Seeing as we're having a nice "lets-all-be-PC" hug-fest in this thread, perhaps we can stop being insensitive to people in this case as well? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coprolalia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coprolalia
    - Ygg2 13y ago
      It was a joke. Tourette's/Coprolalia refers to having a tick like behavior that might cause swearing. It is laughable that his writing is caused by Tourette'ssyndrome /Coprolalia.
smoyer 13y ago
I don't appreciate the language he uses and, in general, I can't condone verbal abuse. If you hear a "but" coming, there are a couple questions that I can't answer, since I don't know Linus (personally) and I don't know what the relationship between Linus and the maintainers in the two examples are. These may be unpopular questions, but perhaps someone who knows can answer. 1) I hear plenty of foul and seemingly abusive language happen between friends. Are the examples given seem more abusive because we assume the parties are merely acquaintances? I also didn't take the time to follow the e-mail threads to see how the conversation started. 2) I remember once when I was 17 or 18, I heard someone swearing through a sentence (that should have been a good point in the conversation) and immediately thought they were a dullard. Then I realized that people might have the same perception of me and I quit swearing almost immediately. It doesn't really matter whether you find the curse words acceptable, the reality is that I can still verbally abuse someone using perfect grammar and "tenpenny" words. If the banter is not good-natured banter, how do you define verbal abuse? 3) Are Linus' responses to these e-mails simply indicative of the passion that's also let him lead the creation and fostering of Linux over the last 20 years? Would someone without that passion (whether using foul language or not) have succeeded in such a broad endeavor? 4) Are the supposed victims of the described abuse speaking out about this? I would assume that if they were truly offended, they would have told at least a few people, but I haven't seen any indication that they were offended. Linux isn't some dictatorial regime - have people "left the empire" (quit kernel development) because of this behavior? 5) Are the threads containing harsh criticisms balanced by e-mails pointing out how brilliantly someone solved an issue? It's more acceptable to rant about a mistake if you also rave over something extraordinary. 6) Has Linus ever lambasted himself publicly over his own mistakes? I tend to think any code I wrote over six months ago is pretty crappy (it's a perfectionist thing). I can't condone verbal abuse, though I've seen similar abuse in person and in a professional environment, but I also can't say this is abuse without knowing the complete context. I tend to think personal attacks are out of place, but commentary on the technology can be as pleasant or harsh as necessary. Linus: If you happen to read this, first I'd like to thank you for the work you've done. In some ways, I've grown my career as a side-effect of your work. Second, I'd like to say that following the mailing list would in fact be more pleasurable if the place didn't feel like walking through a ghetto.
rabino 13y ago
Can't really understand the discussion. Is Linus going to change they way he talks because some people vote for it? Yeah... don't think so.

43 points by psibi 13y ago

psibi 13y ago

Complete discussion here: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel.stable/58049/focus%3D58062 http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel.stable/58049/focu...

jabiko 13y ago
Start of the verbal abuse discussion: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel.stable/58049/focus=1525074 http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel.stable/58049/focu...
- alemhnan 13y ago
  http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel.stable/58049/focus=1525074 http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel.stable/58049/focu... 'Come to the dark side, Sarah. We have cookies.' -- Linus
- shib71 13y ago
  I'm not familiar with LKML or any of the developers, but Sarah is very impressive in this thread. Every time someone else tries to shift the topic, she brings the conversation back on course. She's right about a minimum standard of civility being crucial in email. Even if no one on the list is personally affected by the language (a big if for a large list), a single vitriolic email can poison the atmosphere for days.

ddalex_ro 13y ago

Wtf, now we fight the way Linus is dictating things around ? Next, we'll be down to having respect for colleagues and maintain civility in all cases.

DannyBee 13y ago
In some ways, Linus is not wrong. Fake civility and fake respect do not usually help anyone. This does not mean you run around screaming at people, usually, that gets you fired. However, these folks have formed their own community, and set the rules of conduct for it. If she wants to try to change those, great. But this should be a discussion for members of that community, not one of trying to get the world writ large to come down on them. (At least from where I sit, she is trying to do the latter, rather than the former. Maybe i'm misreading it though) Essentially, she wants the community to change not because the community wants to, but because everyone else outside the community wants them to. This seems, without thinking very hard, quite wrong. She always retains the option of starting her own community, etc. Note that even the law recognizes the issues here in the US. Generally, small non-governmental groups can't be forced to open up membership or to avoid discrimination. So the local old boys club generally can't be forced to accept women, for example.
- icebraining 13y ago
  Not sure why would you comment on discrimination law; I'm sure Linus is very egalitarian in his yelling ;)
  - DannyBee 13y ago
    I'm just pointing out that even the law doesn't want to try to solve this problem, and it tries to solve everything. :)
- PavlovsCat 13y ago
  In some ways, Linus is not wrong. Fake civility and fake respect do not usually help anyone. That's still a strawman, and not a valid response to anything she actually said. But this should be a discussion for members of that community, not one of trying to get the world writ large to come down on them. (At least from where I sit, she is trying to do the latter, rather than the former. Maybe i'm misreading it though) Have you read the actual mailing list discussion? She's rather patient, polite and constructive, while Linus spouts mostly BS like the above strawman. So how do you come up with that "agenda" of hers? If you can't talk with some people, the next best thing is to find people with brains to talk about those people. There is nothing wrong with that, it should be encouraged. Essentially, she wants the community to change not because the community wants to, but because everyone else outside the community wants them to. This seems, without thinking very hard, quite wrong. Then try thinking, it could go a little something like this: maybe, just maybe, she's the first mentally grown up person to stroll deep enough into that mailing list to ever raise the point. This is not wrong, just awkward, and "that's just the way I am" is a response fit for a 5 year old.

aclevernickname 13y ago

So, can anyone tell me what Sarah Sharp has contributed to the kernel?

kingkilr 13y ago
What does that have to do with anything?
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
  - icebraining 13y ago
    Don't they? How do you know?
    - beachstartup 13y ago
      because this issue comes up all the time and in the end nobody gives a shit because linus runs the show and is basically a dictator.
Zr40 13y ago
There are other ways of contributing to a project besides committing code changes.
RyanZAG 13y ago
What role do you play in the community and/or what subsystem(s) do you work on? I'm the Linux kernel xHCI driver maintainer. I own Linux USB 3.0 support, and I send my patches up to Greg Kroah-Hartman, who is the USB subsystem maintainer. Where do you get your paycheck? I work in Intel's Open Source Technology Center, along with a bunch of other cool Linux kernel developers. -- Sourced from https://www.linux.com/news/special-feature/linux-developers/593966-30-linux-kernel-developers-in-30-weeks-sarah-sharp https://www.linux.com/news/special-feature/linux-developers/...
- 13y ago

beachstartup 13y ago

this issue comes up every couple of years - these guys write linux, you can't make them do anything. they are untouchable and will do/say whatever the hell they want. linus especially - is a grown ass man and does this in person too, as is his prerogative. anyone see his github speech? he stands up in front of 300 people and calls them all idiots.

icebraining 13y ago
Sarah Sharp is part of the people who "write linux" - she's the xHCI driver maintainer at Intel.
- beachstartup 13y ago
  if alan cox couldn't get linus to change, how the hell does she think she will? i honestly don't get it.
  - maqr 13y ago
    I'm not sure how many people it would take for Linus to change his ways, but I'd guess that it'd take some kind of intervention, and that seems exceptionally unlikely. When Linus refuses to change, which he has and will continue to do, I'm not sure what the next step is to squash his sometimes impolite manner. Surely you can't ban Linus from the LKML or convince the Linux Foundation to remove him. For better or worse, Linus and his rants are here to stay. This #kernelhackers #abuse thing is entertaining to watch, but nobody should seriously expect a change here. I suppose it's FOSS, so people who agree with Sarah's position could form their own separate fork and mailing list. More likely though is that every time Linus posts another rant about how poor of a job somebody did, they'll reply with some kind of shaming of his impoliteness, which Linus will simply ignore and nothing will change.
- lawnchair_larry 13y ago
  While this is a great contribution, and more than I have done for open source, this is a far cry from "writing linux". Also, it's her job at Intel.

davidw 13y ago

I like Rusty Russell's point of view: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/1525480 http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/1525480 " You have to be harsh with code: People mistake politeness for uncertainty. Whenever I said 'I prefer if you XYZ' some proportion didn't realize I meant 'Don't argue unless you have new facts: do XYZ or go away.' This wastes my time, so I started being explicit. But be gentle with people. You've already called their baby ugly."

kingkilr 13y ago
This is a false dichotomy. I do a lot of code review, both in my day job and for many open source projects. I've never had to verbally abuse someone to explain the changes I wanted to see in a patch. (OSS projects I've done code review on include: Django, PyPy, Topaz, CPython, Twisted, and OpenStack)
- mercurial 13y ago
  Absolutely. There is a place for "I would prefer that XYZ". It often means "you have a convention slightly different than mine, I'd rather you change your code to fit my style but that's not a big issue". However, you can be very explicit by saying "It's a bad idea to do XYZ and here is why, this is what I suggest instead". Bonus point if your code review system can flag a comment as "Defect" to make it more explicit. It does not need to involve four-letter words or cussing in Finnish.
  - davidw 13y ago
    I can understand not always having time to explain why something is a bad idea when you're working on very high profile code. I think Rusty's right: you can be unequivocally harsh with the code, but not swear at or call people morons.
    - mercurial 13y ago
      Even if you don't have time to explain, "This is a bad/dangerous idea" is enough to get the point across, without resorting to swear words (on the other hand "I would prefer that" is clearly not much of an incentive to change things) or being rude ("or go away" is definitely rude in my book).

acqq 13y ago

Sarah according to those who know more than me wrote "the entire USB3 stack" and then in one discussion http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel.stable/58049/focus=1525074 http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel.stable/58049/focu... thus reacted on Linus claims: On Fri, 12 Jul 2013 08:22:27 -0700, Linus wrote: "Greg, the reason you get a lot of stable patches seems to be that you make it easy to act as a door-mat. Clearly at least some people say 'I know this patch isn't important enough to send to Linus, but I know Greg will silently accept it after the fact, so I'll just wait and mark it for stable'. You may need to learn to shout at people." Seriously, guys? Is this what we need in order to get improve -stable? Linus Torvalds is advocating for physical intimidation and violence. Ingo Molnar and Linus are advocating for verbal abuse. Not _fucking_ cool. Violence, whether it be physical intimidation, verbal threats or verbal abuse is not acceptable. Keep it professional on the mailing lists. Let's discuss this at Kernel Summit where we can at least yell at each other in person. Yeah, just try yelling at me about this. I'll roar right back, louder, for all the people who lose their voice when they get yelled at by top maintainers. I won't be the nice girl anymore. I think she's definitely right. Keep it professional. The implementation of any piece of something can be stupid. It's often not because we want to make it that way, or because it's stupid as it is, it's stupid in a given context. Somebody like Linus is somebody who must handle at that level. There bluntness can help. Still it's about the context, not about what people who produce work are or aren't. Just don't call people stupid, don't intimidate, threat or abuse them personally.

icebraining 13y ago
Linus' reply: Because if you want me to "act professional", I can tell you that I'm not interested. I'm sitting in my home office wearign a bathrobe. The same way I'm not going to start wearing ties, I'm *also* not going to buy into the fake politeness, the lying, the office politics and backstabbing, the passive aggressiveness, and the buzzwords. Because THAT is what "acting professionally" results in: people resort to all kinds of really nasty things because they are forced to act out their normal urges in unnatural ways. http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel.stable/58049/focus=58317 http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel.stable/58049/focu...
- 13y ago

izietto 13y ago

This is my position: Words are just a way to express something we want to communicate, and their meaning must be considered within the context they are expressed. When Linus says something like "This piece-of-shit commit is marked for stable, but you clearly never even test-compiled it, did you?" https://lkml.org/lkml/2013/7/13/132 https://lkml.org/lkml/2013/7/13/132 , he clearly has an insane reaction to something that at the end isn't nothing more than a normal human mistake. But what his exaggerated reactions want to really express is "I INSANELY care about kernel quality, so I have INSANE reactions to actions that lower its value", and in this way he subliminally transmits its kernel care to the subject of the rant. What do you think about my interpretation?

PavlovsCat 13y ago
Considering the he "despises being nice" because "that's just how he is", and can't express what he actually wants to say even though he was able to fucking create Linux, then I think he simply fulfills the cliché of the one-sided nerd: good with machines, bad with people, to the point of wanting people to be like machines. I can sympathize with that to a degree, but not really. Just because I share the sickness doesn't mean it's not a sickness.
- izietto 13y ago
  I think he succeeds to express what he actually wants to say, he just doesn't talk with your conscience, IMHO rightly: the emotions towards something is not a conscience matter, so it is worthless to communicate them to your conscience; it's better to talk with the part of your brain involved with emotions. About "despises being nice" this seem to me just a trait of an egocentric personality, which is fairly common in our individualist society between overachiever people (Steve Jobs is a classic example). I don't mean it is a pleasant behaviour, but frankly as citizen of a west country I'm used to it.

neya 13y ago

I share Lucas De Marchi's perspective: I see lots of strong words in LKML. So much that in some other lists there's the say "hey, this isn't LKML and this behavior is not appreciated here". However in this case I don't see it. Linus and Greg were in no way calling out for violence, but instead making joke about it. What I am seeing more often than I'd like is people losing the ability to joke at ourselves. For me over reaction is as disturbing as the strong words. Go to the link you pointed out here, read it again. Knowing the people who wrote them can't you imagine their troll face? Honestly, she's just stirring the community into aggression mode and I'm not overly fond of what may follow.

acqq 13y ago
Can you please explain how is a pledge for not using personal abuses "stirring into aggression mode?"

whalenow 13y ago

Does she read Hacker News?! Why on Earth would she like LKML to be some kind of politically correct cesspool like this forum?

_pmf_ 13y ago
That's a very thorough argument. In a very high-volume medium like the LKML where it is necessary to filter out relevant stuff, you usually don't want anything that provokes lengthy discussions, as these waste the time and patience of hundreds of people, including the submitter himself. Clearly stating "fuck off" instead of "yeah, your contribution is really nice, you have some nice additions, however ..." when the maintainer will definitely reject the contribution saves everyone's time.
cyphax 13y ago
What is it with people and binary arguments? She isn't asking for LKML to be turned into a politically correct cesspool. Not being an asshole does NOT have to equal being politically correct. She's advocating clarity WITHOUT verbal abuse. That's SO easy to do: if you filter out the f-bombs that are directed at people as well as the STFU's and you're there. There is so much in between verbal abuse and killing each other with kindness, it's not even funny. I find it sad that even Torvalds thinks in black and white like that. And then he hides behind "that's just who I am". Whatever. Very mature. I wouldn't even consider becoming a Linux kernel maintainer, much like I would quit my job the day my boss decides to treat his employees this way.

venomsnake 13y ago

We should be allowed to insult each other. In general. But here is the thing - if should be non discriminatory. The bullshit and idiocy should be called on spot without taking into consideration the race, gender,age, color and attitude towards my little pony of the offender. So as long as Linus treats everyone as a inferior retard until proven otherwise it is ok with me. I think racism and sexism (and lots of other isms that split people on us and the others) don't have place in a society but I will fight very hard for the right of the people to express misanthropy. TL DR: As long as Linus insults everybody it is ok.

PavlovsCat 13y ago
In the words of Linus, that's bullshit, and you're stupid for even suggesting it. If hating a subset of something is bad, then how is hating the whole better? Because it's more "fair"? It's also a lot more destructive, and misanthropy could be argued to include all -isms you could name, and then some. Here's a thought, misanthropy is always projected self-hate, delusions of grandeur are just inferiority complexes, and Linus could use a shrink. Who doesn't, right? So I'm not judging. But if you're for calling a spade a spade, let's call a spade a spade.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- aclevernickname 13y ago
  > But if you're for calling a spade a spade, let's call a spade a spade. it's bad enough with the sexist comments in here, perhaps we could avoid the racist ones as well? See what I did there? how is that different from what Sarah Sharp did?

bjourne 13y ago

Oh the dhhraaaama!

nawitus 13y ago

She could've presented her critique without turning it into a gender issue: >I won't be the nice girl anymore.

nawitus 13y ago
This is also pretty telling: >Snort. Perhaps we haven't interacted very often, but I have never seen you be nice in person at KS. Well, there was that one time you came to me and very quietly explained you had a problem with your USB 3.0 ports, but you came off as "scared to talk to a girl kernel developer" more than "I'm trying to be polite". While verbal abuse is not acceptable, neither is the male-shaming language she is using there.
- maqr 13y ago
  Wow. How can she possibly think that's an acceptable thing to say in a thread about politeness that she started? Now I'm beginning to wonder if I understand her complaint at all.
samwillis 13y ago
She is not making it into a gender issue. That statement is just the same as if it was a guy making a stand and wrote: I won't be the nice guy anymore.
- nawitus 13y ago
  The term 'nice guy' is also often used in discussions about gender. Of course that's not the case always. If I hear someone use the term 'nice guy' without context then my first guess is that it's about gender.
James_Duval 13y ago
I don't understand how that turns it into a gender issue. Should she have said "nice guy" instead?
- Cthulhu_ 13y ago

miles 13y ago

Wow - on a rare visit to Slashdot, stumbled across this incredibly insightful comment by Charliemopps[1]: Ironically his argument about fake politeness is EXACTLY what he's getting. People are pretending that his horrible behavior is acceptable just because they don't want to get on his bad side. Acting professionally is not about politeness, it's about not muddying up the conversation with information that's not useful. [1] http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3977141&cid=44291653 http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3977141&cid=442916... EDIT: Had to add one more gem from the Slashdot discussion, this one by Culture20[2]: It's not "fake politeness" to stop using abusive language, it's normal politeness. [2] http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3977141&cid=44290909 http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3977141&cid=442909...

_pmf_ 13y ago
> People are pretending that his horrible behavior is acceptable just because they don't want to get on his bad side. I think this is wrong. This argument does not make sense for people who are not in any way directly involved with kernel contributions, but have nevertheless formed an opinion about Linus. I, personally, find his antics to be quite entertaining and refreshing. Reacting strongly to small technical detail is something that should be encouraged, not banished.
markdown 13y ago
> People are pretending that his horrible behavior is acceptable just because they don't want to get on his bad side. Or maybe they're just willing to accept the occasional insult from a guy they respect, admire, and who has done so much good for them. Kinda like how people forgive Bill Clinton for lying to them about his private shenanigans because he was a damn good president overall.
- Ygg2 13y ago
  Or maybe, just maybe you can be a smart, contributing person without being a raging douche bag.
  - 13y ago

xentronium 13y ago

I've been wondering, when Linus expresses his anger at different people on mailing lists, does he mean it? When he calls someone a fucking idiot and tells them to shut the fuck up, does he really want to offend the person or his actions/code? I feel like it's the latter, i.e. when you are called a moron, you probably did something stupid. On the other hand, once you understand this, doesn't it devalue all the harsh words, i.e. "moron is new horrible"? For words to be insulting they have to be used sparingly, right? I am not a subscriber of LKML, so I am not sure, but I think that Linus understands this and doesn't abuse/insult anyone too often, or it will not be too effective. Otherwise, everyone would consider him a dick instead of a blunt and straightforward person, wouldn't they?

bsaul 13y ago

<offtopic> The mailing list threads she mentions both speak about a fix that creates regression and linus getting angry at it. Which makes me wonder : with that philosophy, i'm pretty sure the linux kernel code is filled with hooks to keep the old behavior in some cases and use the new one in new cases (you sometimes have to break things). Is there any plan of having a non-backward compatible linux kernel one day, or just to start deprecating features ?

andyhmltn 13y ago

I don't agree with verbal abuse, but correct me if I'm wrong is this really classified as that? http://marc.info/?l=linux-acpi&m=136157944603147&w=2 http://marc.info/?l=linux-acpi&m=136157944603147&w=2 The only reason I can see that being abuse is swearing. Swearing shouldn't be seen as offensive. It's just a good way of expressing certain points.

icebraining 13y ago

It's interesting that this story has just been heavily flagged. Into sank from 3rd position to 45th in five minutes: http://hnrankings.info/6050443/ http://hnrankings.info/6050443/

ohwp 13y ago

It's all about "constructive criticism". We all know Linus is right most of the time. But I think his abusive tone isn't constructive and won't motivate people to do a better job. Edit: "Adopting the most effective style of criticism should be tempered by the cultural context, the recipient's personality, and nature of the relationship between provider and recipient." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_criticism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_criticism

_sabe_ 13y ago

I would think Linus has some form of light asperger, and when he calls someone "dick head" thats not aggression against a physical person but in this case to the fact that someone pushed code that does not build. He's to rational to mix up personal feelings against somebody and the quality of the code. The only way to get offended when Linus goes of in a rant is to think that he does. Also maybe it's the fact that I'm Finnish too, but the best teachers from school I remember where those that valued perfection, and I don't think they raised their voice to abuse one, but to make a point... I can still remember a computer teacher who went bananas every time someone used the carriage return in the middle of a paragraph, and physically broke of the key from the keyboard, just to show that It wasn't supposed to be used that way. Maybe some people got offended or scared, but to me it stuck, the importance between separating visual appearance and semantics...

Ygg2 13y ago
And maybe, all of his swearing is a form of Tourette's syndrome. Let's not rationalize it here, I doubt either one of us holds a PhD in psychology.
- aclevernickname 13y ago
  Those of us that actually have Tourette's syndrome really get pissed when people confuse it with Coprolalia [1]. Seeing as we're having a nice "lets-all-be-PC" hug-fest in this thread, perhaps we can stop being insensitive to people in this case as well? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coprolalia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coprolalia
  - Ygg2 13y ago
    It was a joke. Tourette's/Coprolalia refers to having a tick like behavior that might cause swearing. It is laughable that his writing is caused by Tourette'ssyndrome /Coprolalia.

smoyer 13y ago

I don't appreciate the language he uses and, in general, I can't condone verbal abuse. If you hear a "but" coming, there are a couple questions that I can't answer, since I don't know Linus (personally) and I don't know what the relationship between Linus and the maintainers in the two examples are. These may be unpopular questions, but perhaps someone who knows can answer. 1) I hear plenty of foul and seemingly abusive language happen between friends. Are the examples given seem more abusive because we assume the parties are merely acquaintances? I also didn't take the time to follow the e-mail threads to see how the conversation started. 2) I remember once when I was 17 or 18, I heard someone swearing through a sentence (that should have been a good point in the conversation) and immediately thought they were a dullard. Then I realized that people might have the same perception of me and I quit swearing almost immediately. It doesn't really matter whether you find the curse words acceptable, the reality is that I can still verbally abuse someone using perfect grammar and "tenpenny" words. If the banter is not good-natured banter, how do you define verbal abuse? 3) Are Linus' responses to these e-mails simply indicative of the passion that's also let him lead the creation and fostering of Linux over the last 20 years? Would someone without that passion (whether using foul language or not) have succeeded in such a broad endeavor? 4) Are the supposed victims of the described abuse speaking out about this? I would assume that if they were truly offended, they would have told at least a few people, but I haven't seen any indication that they were offended. Linux isn't some dictatorial regime - have people "left the empire" (quit kernel development) because of this behavior? 5) Are the threads containing harsh criticisms balanced by e-mails pointing out how brilliantly someone solved an issue? It's more acceptable to rant about a mistake if you also rave over something extraordinary. 6) Has Linus ever lambasted himself publicly over his own mistakes? I tend to think any code I wrote over six months ago is pretty crappy (it's a perfectionist thing). I can't condone verbal abuse, though I've seen similar abuse in person and in a professional environment, but I also can't say this is abuse without knowing the complete context. I tend to think personal attacks are out of place, but commentary on the technology can be as pleasant or harsh as necessary. Linus: If you happen to read this, first I'd like to thank you for the work you've done. In some ways, I've grown my career as a side-effect of your work. Second, I'd like to say that following the mailing list would in fact be more pleasurable if the place didn't feel like walking through a ghetto.

rabino 13y ago

Can't really understand the discussion. Is Linus going to change they way he talks because some people vote for it? Yeah... don't think so.