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What I don't understand about Linus Torvalds is why everybody is so quick to justify and forgive what is obviously emotional abuse. If he was shooting people t

What I don't understand about Linus Torvalds is why everybody is so quick to justify and forgive what is obviously emotional abuse. If he was shooting people that submitted buggy patches, would you say that was awesome? Obviously not. How is a less violent form of abuse suddenly great? Lots of shitty solutions are highly effective. Relying on them is the lazy and uncaring way of dealing with your fellow humans.

zby 13y ago
Sometimes you need to escalate the consequences - otherwise groups just fall apart. It is not easy to lead a group. I used to be the object of similar attacks by a leader that I believe were unjust (because I believe that technically I was right) - but I still think that leaders sometimes have to use this power.
lloeki 13y ago
How do you expect one's boss in a startup/enterprise to behave if one: - pushed some code that fired warnings all over the place and made the CI server go red on the main platform used out there - developed said code in vague hopes that it is somehow useful, yet is admittedly "probably not" straight in the commit comment hence time was 1. developer wasted time 2. team wasted time 3. boss wasted time I'd expect 2 and 3 to be quite angry, and ultimately 1 to be angry at himself for having wasted everyone's time.
- foobarbazqux 13y ago
  It's possible to express anger without being abusive. It is definitely harder to do this.
  - Marwy 13y ago
    Can you give some examples?
    - foobarbazqux 13y ago
      So based on the above case, something like: "Your commit broke the build because it contained something you knew was probably not okay. This is costing us money because it wastes everyone's time. If you do it again I'm going to have to revoke some privileges, because it's my responsibility as CEO to keep us afloat. Is there anything I don't understand about what happened so we can prevent this from happening again?" This is hypothetical of course, a less severe response may be called for, and obviously it would be more of a conversation. It isn't nice and friendly, but it isn't abusive either.
      - tzs 13y ago
        That's something you would say to a young child who has not yet learned to tell right from wrong, not yet learned to consider the consequences of his actions, and has not yet learned to act considerately toward others. It is belittling to speak to an adult that way. I would find that far more abusive than simply being sworn at for committing an act of stupidity. If I got a Linus style dressing down, I would be embarrassed. But I would not feel like I was being treated like a child. I'd feel that I'm being shown respect--it would mean he believes that I do have the knowledge and skill to do it right, and that I just for some reason was a complete idiot in this case, and so all he has to do is let me know just how much it annoyed him and I can take it from there. I would acknowledge that he was right, I was a fucking idiot, and make sure it did not happen again. We'd then both move on, with my only fear being that if I ever receive an award or am given a going away party when I retire or something like that where people might get up and tell embarrassing stories about me, I've given them one more.
        foobarbazqux 13y ago
        I had honestly never considered the idea that it could be seen as condescending to express anger while taking pains not to humiliate the other person. At least I think that's what you're saying. Maybe there's another way to say it without the abuse? In a boss-employee relationship, the boss is not your friend, so they are an authority figure, much like a parent is an authority figure to a child. So it could be in the nature of the relationship. I wouldn't talk to a friend or coworker like that, I do see how that would be condescending.
  - tankenmate 13y ago
    Being rational while delivering an emotive message almost always sanitises and diminishes its impact. In fact that quite often is the point. If you want / need to bare your fangs you might as well be honest about it. If Linus was indiscriminately being verbally forthright you might have a case; "offensive" words exist for a reason, Linus for the most part uses them wisely. Personally I'd much rather that people were honest and swore at me than be polite and backstab me. Sometimes the way to be most honest with people is to swear at them.
    - foobarbazqux 13y ago
      All Linus had to say was something along the lines of, "I lost 5 hours of my time because you didn't test compile your code. I trusted you to do this. I'm angry about the wasted time and breach of trust, so in future you need to test compile your code or I'm going to stop trusting you." It's not perfect, but you get the idea.
codeboost 13y ago
Oh come on. Everyone is so fucking sensitive these days. We now have psychological terms for every little emotion and behavior, but come on, put these into perspective. Our grandparents would slap you in the face for calling this an abuse. Try sitting in a trench with tanks rolling by and bombs falling from the sky during WW2, at 18. I could go on with examples of what 'emotional abuse' is, but I think you get my point. The submitter fucked up and he got a slap on the wrist. And it was good for the entire community. The 'abused' submitter will probably triple check his commits and will be a better programmer as a result. Everyone wins.
- foobarbazqux 13y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_abuse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_abuse Telling somebody that they are "so fucking sensitive" is abusive. I'd be offended by that comment if I was the recipient of Linus' wrath here.
  - zalew 13y ago
    And what would have happened due to getting offended? Your leg would fall off? Your eyes would bleed? "Getting offended" is a purely cultural and personal issue. Somebody out there in the world is offended because you wear shorts, so what. Got to find your way to deal with it or confront it. Those online wambulance calls are ridiculous. http://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=137392506516022&w=2 http://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=137392506516022&w=2 So as far as I'm concerned, the discussion is about "how to work together DESPITE people being different". Not about trying to make everybody please each other. Because I can pretty much guarantee that I'll continue cursing. To me, the discussion would be about how to work together despite these kinds of cultural differences, not about "how do we make everybody nice and sing songs sound the campfire"
    - foobarbazqux 13y ago
      > This wambulance calls are ridiculous. This statement is also emotional abuse. Emotional abuse creates psychological pain. Psychological pain creates physical pain. That is all that happens. It's a biological process. Why is it a problem if I say that I would feel pain in response to somebody's words? This is just a fact I know about myself.
rimantas 13y ago
You know, there is a theory, that kids growing in sterile environments have really shitty imune sistems and prone to all kinds of ilnesses. I think the same goes for the emotional environment and we are starting to see the results of this, I'd call it "knee-jerk ethics". It works like this: there is a list of words, which are triggers, and the default action: to feel "offended". Whatever that means. Why is it bad? Because it "outsources" ethics, removes emphaty and understanding and messes up semantics. Astonishing number of people are quick to yell "rasist", "sexist" at anything even remotely related to race of sex, no matter the context and the amount of real rasism or sexism (which my be zero). If anything and everything offends and abuses you, well, go cry in the corner.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- derefr 13y ago
  Hey now--some words are in the linguistic toolkit precisely because they create offense. I would almost call it "fiat offense"--there's nothing offensive about these words, beyond the fact that we, as a culture, have agreed to react in an offended manner to them.† They can thus be used to "color" your language to make any statement seem offensive and lower-status, when that is your goal. † The proof of this being that different cultures choose wildly different things to be offended about; nobody in America thinks "bloody" or "tabarnac" are offensive, even though we understand exactly the concepts to which the words refer.
  - tankenmate 13y ago
    Indeed, in fact in English it is interesting to note that words of Germanic origin are more likely to be viewed as crass than words of French origin. The word infernal in English is almost never considered rude, but the word hell(ish) can be, obviously not as much these days as it used to be. To really see this effect in motion go have a look at what the middle English equivalent of the word vagina is.
lotsofcows 13y ago
Emotional abuse? Blimey. How do you cope with watching TV? Driving anywhere? In busy shops?
- foobarbazqux 13y ago
  Well it doesn't bother me nearly as much if it's not directed at me - I just feel bad for the recipient. If it is directed at me I pick my battles, and often just tolerate it. I'm not personally upset by Linus, I just find it strange that people speak so highly of his behavior.

zby 13y ago

Sometimes you need to escalate the consequences - otherwise groups just fall apart. It is not easy to lead a group. I used to be the object of similar attacks by a leader that I believe were unjust (because I believe that technically I was right) - but I still think that leaders sometimes have to use this power.

lloeki 13y ago

How do you expect one's boss in a startup/enterprise to behave if one: - pushed some code that fired warnings all over the place and made the CI server go red on the main platform used out there - developed said code in vague hopes that it is somehow useful, yet is admittedly "probably not" straight in the commit comment hence time was 1. developer wasted time 2. team wasted time 3. boss wasted time I'd expect 2 and 3 to be quite angry, and ultimately 1 to be angry at himself for having wasted everyone's time.

foobarbazqux 13y ago
It's possible to express anger without being abusive. It is definitely harder to do this.
- Marwy 13y ago
  Can you give some examples?
  - foobarbazqux 13y ago
    So based on the above case, something like: "Your commit broke the build because it contained something you knew was probably not okay. This is costing us money because it wastes everyone's time. If you do it again I'm going to have to revoke some privileges, because it's my responsibility as CEO to keep us afloat. Is there anything I don't understand about what happened so we can prevent this from happening again?" This is hypothetical of course, a less severe response may be called for, and obviously it would be more of a conversation. It isn't nice and friendly, but it isn't abusive either.
    - tzs 13y ago
      That's something you would say to a young child who has not yet learned to tell right from wrong, not yet learned to consider the consequences of his actions, and has not yet learned to act considerately toward others. It is belittling to speak to an adult that way. I would find that far more abusive than simply being sworn at for committing an act of stupidity. If I got a Linus style dressing down, I would be embarrassed. But I would not feel like I was being treated like a child. I'd feel that I'm being shown respect--it would mean he believes that I do have the knowledge and skill to do it right, and that I just for some reason was a complete idiot in this case, and so all he has to do is let me know just how much it annoyed him and I can take it from there. I would acknowledge that he was right, I was a fucking idiot, and make sure it did not happen again. We'd then both move on, with my only fear being that if I ever receive an award or am given a going away party when I retire or something like that where people might get up and tell embarrassing stories about me, I've given them one more.
      - foobarbazqux 13y ago
        I had honestly never considered the idea that it could be seen as condescending to express anger while taking pains not to humiliate the other person. At least I think that's what you're saying. Maybe there's another way to say it without the abuse? In a boss-employee relationship, the boss is not your friend, so they are an authority figure, much like a parent is an authority figure to a child. So it could be in the nature of the relationship. I wouldn't talk to a friend or coworker like that, I do see how that would be condescending.
- tankenmate 13y ago
  Being rational while delivering an emotive message almost always sanitises and diminishes its impact. In fact that quite often is the point. If you want / need to bare your fangs you might as well be honest about it. If Linus was indiscriminately being verbally forthright you might have a case; "offensive" words exist for a reason, Linus for the most part uses them wisely. Personally I'd much rather that people were honest and swore at me than be polite and backstab me. Sometimes the way to be most honest with people is to swear at them.
  - foobarbazqux 13y ago
    All Linus had to say was something along the lines of, "I lost 5 hours of my time because you didn't test compile your code. I trusted you to do this. I'm angry about the wasted time and breach of trust, so in future you need to test compile your code or I'm going to stop trusting you." It's not perfect, but you get the idea.

codeboost 13y ago

Oh come on. Everyone is so fucking sensitive these days. We now have psychological terms for every little emotion and behavior, but come on, put these into perspective. Our grandparents would slap you in the face for calling this an abuse. Try sitting in a trench with tanks rolling by and bombs falling from the sky during WW2, at 18. I could go on with examples of what 'emotional abuse' is, but I think you get my point. The submitter fucked up and he got a slap on the wrist. And it was good for the entire community. The 'abused' submitter will probably triple check his commits and will be a better programmer as a result. Everyone wins.

foobarbazqux 13y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_abuse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_abuse Telling somebody that they are "so fucking sensitive" is abusive. I'd be offended by that comment if I was the recipient of Linus' wrath here.
- zalew 13y ago
  And what would have happened due to getting offended? Your leg would fall off? Your eyes would bleed? "Getting offended" is a purely cultural and personal issue. Somebody out there in the world is offended because you wear shorts, so what. Got to find your way to deal with it or confront it. Those online wambulance calls are ridiculous. http://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=137392506516022&w=2 http://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=137392506516022&w=2 So as far as I'm concerned, the discussion is about "how to work together DESPITE people being different". Not about trying to make everybody please each other. Because I can pretty much guarantee that I'll continue cursing. To me, the discussion would be about how to work together despite these kinds of cultural differences, not about "how do we make everybody nice and sing songs sound the campfire"
  - foobarbazqux 13y ago
    > This wambulance calls are ridiculous. This statement is also emotional abuse. Emotional abuse creates psychological pain. Psychological pain creates physical pain. That is all that happens. It's a biological process. Why is it a problem if I say that I would feel pain in response to somebody's words? This is just a fact I know about myself.

rimantas 13y ago

You know, there is a theory, that kids growing in sterile environments have really shitty imune sistems and prone to all kinds of ilnesses. I think the same goes for the emotional environment and we are starting to see the results of this, I'd call it "knee-jerk ethics". It works like this: there is a list of words, which are triggers, and the default action: to feel "offended". Whatever that means. Why is it bad? Because it "outsources" ethics, removes emphaty and understanding and messes up semantics. Astonishing number of people are quick to yell "rasist", "sexist" at anything even remotely related to race of sex, no matter the context and the amount of real rasism or sexism (which my be zero). If anything and everything offends and abuses you, well, go cry in the corner.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
derefr 13y ago
Hey now--some words are in the linguistic toolkit precisely because they create offense. I would almost call it "fiat offense"--there's nothing offensive about these words, beyond the fact that we, as a culture, have agreed to react in an offended manner to them.† They can thus be used to "color" your language to make any statement seem offensive and lower-status, when that is your goal. † The proof of this being that different cultures choose wildly different things to be offended about; nobody in America thinks "bloody" or "tabarnac" are offensive, even though we understand exactly the concepts to which the words refer.
- tankenmate 13y ago
  Indeed, in fact in English it is interesting to note that words of Germanic origin are more likely to be viewed as crass than words of French origin. The word infernal in English is almost never considered rude, but the word hell(ish) can be, obviously not as much these days as it used to be. To really see this effect in motion go have a look at what the middle English equivalent of the word vagina is.

lotsofcows 13y ago

Emotional abuse? Blimey. How do you cope with watching TV? Driving anywhere? In busy shops?

foobarbazqux 13y ago
Well it doesn't bother me nearly as much if it's not directed at me - I just feel bad for the recipient. If it is directed at me I pick my battles, and often just tolerate it. I'm not personally upset by Linus, I just find it strange that people speak so highly of his behavior.