3 ms·

I'm confused by what seems to be a non-sequitur. I'm talking about educational achievement, and there is an absolute, well-documented and undeniable gap there.

I'm confused by what seems to be a non-sequitur. I'm talking about educational achievement, and there is an absolute, well-documented and undeniable gap there. While it's true that within the highest ranks of Western society, gender plays a significant role, it's also true that socioeconomic background -- "class", for lack of a better word -- has a sunlight-to-candle relationship to gender in terms of getting into those ranks in the first place. Western society has drastically limited mobility right now, and the highest ranks are, unfortunately, more conservative in their views on gender. And as an aside, there's a good example of a broader application of Kleinfeld's thesis there. Men dominate at the extreme high end, but also at the extreme low end. Efforts toward true equality need to address the root cause of that, which has more to do with rigid gender roles imposed on both men and women than with outright favoring of men over women.

melindajb 13y ago
You said: "This has ramifications all the way up the system, including an achievement gap which starts early and only grows with each milestone." And I say, I do not understand how this achievement gap, as you call it, actually matters or is holding men back when men hold most of the advanced degrees, and wealth in this society. I don't think you need a throwaway account to discuss this stuff so long as everyone stays calm. Meanwhile, you're spot on in my opinion about the role of class as well as gender. This is very true. It's also why the "right" way of doing many things is so often a "male" way of doing things, accepted as the default. They are absolutely interconnected and probably inseparable. Most feminists will absolutely agree that rigid gender roles hurt men and women, and we want everyone to fulfill their potential, and not be stuck in those roles.
- gthrowaway 13y ago
  I do not understand how this achievement gap, as you call it, actually matters or is holding men back when men hold most of the advanced degrees, and wealth in this society. Well, at the moment women are earning more bachelor's degrees, master's degrees and yes, even Ph.Ds than men. That doesn't immediately erase a pre-existing gap among the older generations, but it does tell us that in the future we still won't have equality -- we'll have simply replaced one gap by another. The goal really ought to be to start raising generation after generation of kids where boys and girls are equal in educational opportunity and achievement. We've thus far failed at that goal, and I don't truly understand how someone can call themself "feminist" whilst thinking that's not something that "actually matters". The prevalence of people who do call themself "feminist" and hold such beliefs is why I shelter in my warm, snug anonymity. Pointing out such contradictions does not typically result in calm discussions.
  - dragonwriter 13y ago
    > The goal really ought to be to start raising generation after generation of kids where boys and girls are equal in educational opportunity and achievement. There are two very different goals stated there and they may not be compatible.

melindajb 13y ago

You said: "This has ramifications all the way up the system, including an achievement gap which starts early and only grows with each milestone." And I say, I do not understand how this achievement gap, as you call it, actually matters or is holding men back when men hold most of the advanced degrees, and wealth in this society. I don't think you need a throwaway account to discuss this stuff so long as everyone stays calm. Meanwhile, you're spot on in my opinion about the role of class as well as gender. This is very true. It's also why the "right" way of doing many things is so often a "male" way of doing things, accepted as the default. They are absolutely interconnected and probably inseparable. Most feminists will absolutely agree that rigid gender roles hurt men and women, and we want everyone to fulfill their potential, and not be stuck in those roles.

gthrowaway 13y ago
I do not understand how this achievement gap, as you call it, actually matters or is holding men back when men hold most of the advanced degrees, and wealth in this society. Well, at the moment women are earning more bachelor's degrees, master's degrees and yes, even Ph.Ds than men. That doesn't immediately erase a pre-existing gap among the older generations, but it does tell us that in the future we still won't have equality -- we'll have simply replaced one gap by another. The goal really ought to be to start raising generation after generation of kids where boys and girls are equal in educational opportunity and achievement. We've thus far failed at that goal, and I don't truly understand how someone can call themself "feminist" whilst thinking that's not something that "actually matters". The prevalence of people who do call themself "feminist" and hold such beliefs is why I shelter in my warm, snug anonymity. Pointing out such contradictions does not typically result in calm discussions.
- dragonwriter 13y ago
  > The goal really ought to be to start raising generation after generation of kids where boys and girls are equal in educational opportunity and achievement. There are two very different goals stated there and they may not be compatible.