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> But women comprise about 60% of the entering college class, and a similar portion of recent college graduates. Isn't it wonderful how easy it is to ignore th

> But women comprise about 60% of the entering college class, and a similar portion of recent college graduates. Isn't it wonderful how easy it is to ignore that college education is biased towards women and women's needs , and that men are put at a giant disadvantage when it comes to education. I can imagine how the headlines would read if the numbers would have been 60% men and 40% women in college.

Timothee 13y ago
Isn't it wonderful how easy it is to ignore that college education is biased towards women and women's needs What do you mean by that? (honestly curious)
- draugadrotten 13y ago
  Boys have never been in more trouble: They earn 70 percent of the D's and F's that teachers dole out. They make up two thirds of students labeled "learning disabled." They are the culprits in a whopping 9 of 10 alcohol and drug violations and the suspected perpetrators in 4 out of 5 crimes that end up in juvenile court. They account for 80 percent of high school dropouts and attention deficit disorder diagnoses. (Mulrine, A. (2001) Are Boys the Weaker Sex? U.S. News & World Report, 131 (4), 40-48.)
  - mistercow 13y ago
    >They account for 80 percent of high school dropouts Bullshit on several levels. First of all, the "never been in more trouble" in the first sentence gives the impression that these are all worsening trends. In fact, school dropout rates have been consistently declining over the last 40 years[0]. Secondly, as of 2009, the dropout rates for males and females were 3.5% and 3.4% respectively, so assuming equal numbers of boys and girls, that's 51% male and 49% female. But that report was published in 2011 and only goes back to 2009. Maybe back in 2001, the most recent year they had data for was 1999. Let's look at what it was then, shall we? Oh look, the split between male/female was 4.6%/5.4%. In other words a sizable majority of high school dropouts were actually female that year (and the year before). At no point in four decades have dropouts been anywhere close to 80% male. >and attention deficit disorder diagnoses. It is likely that the actual rate of ADHD is about equal in males and females[1], and that it is simply more often diagnosed in males. Underdiagnosis of ADHD among girls is a disadvantage for female students, not an advantage. [0] http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2012/2012006.pdf http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2012/2012006.pdf [1] http://psychcentral.com/lib/2010/adhd-and-gender/ http://psychcentral.com/lib/2010/adhd-and-gender/
    - papsosouid 13y ago
      I love that you appear to be genuinely delusional. If we assume boys and girls are equally likely to have ADHD, and we see that boys are diagnosed with it far more often than girls, there are in fact two possible explanations, not just one. You assume it must be that girls are being under-diagnosed, disadvantaging them (which also assumes being diagnosed is beneficial, which is far from clear). It is also quite possible that boys are being over-diagnosed. Normal male behaviour has been stigmatized, and is used to support diagnosis of boys who clearly do not have ADHD. http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/adhd/problems-overdiagnosis-and-overprescribing-adhd http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/adhd/problems-overdiagnosis-...
    - mistercow 13y ago
      A [dead] replier, after being a douche bag about it, made the valid point that the problem could be overdiagnosis of boys rather than underdiagnosis of girls. Two things about that. One is that even in that case, it still doesn't put boys at a disadvantage to girls. There's no indication that treating someone for ADHD when they don't have it will be disadvantageous to them. The second is that contrary to public and media perception, ADHD is probably not overdiagnosed. Hilariously, this commenter supplied the following article: http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/adhd/problems-overdiagnosis-and-overprescribing-adhd http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/adhd/problems-overdiagnosis-... . Apparently s/he did not actually read that article all the way through, or even skip to the concluding paragraph, which begins: >The public’s fear that ADHD is overdiagnosed and that stimulants are overprescribed is not generally supported by the current scientific research.
  - dspillett 13y ago
    That doesn't indicate that collage education is biased against boy, it just indicates that by the time boys are part of that system they are more likely to be little shits who won't be helped. In my experience (caveat: I'm a man who admits to knowing little of women, haven't been young myself for some time, and don't have kids, so take my suppositions with a grain of salt) boys seem both more inclined to follow bad examples from the "role models" available and less likely to be discouraged from doing so ("boys will be boys!"). There is little the education system can do about this once they get to that age - it needs nipping in the bud earlier than that. I'm not sure who I'd blame for this not happening, probably a mix of the images/sentiments thrown at them by TV/music/whatever and parents not being able/willing to effectively filter that flow - it certain won;t be a single factor answer.
rayiner 13y ago
60% of college students being women = "college education is biased towards women and women's needs." 80% of Silicon Valley engineers being men = "men and women choose different career paths based on preferences." Things that will be said by the same people... Glibness aside, you'll get no argument from me that the disparity in college education between men and women is a problem. That said, college attainment among white men from higher income families actually outpaces, slightly, college attainment for white women from higher income families. Much of the college gender gap is driven by 2:1 or greater ratios in college attainment, in favor of women, among blacks and hispanics. The increasing gender gap in college is intricately tied up with the country basically abandoning black and hispanic as well as lower-income white men.
- tomp 13y ago
  The difference is that having a college degree is a more-and-more important requirement for basically everyone not wanting a blue-collar job. Programmer is just one career choice out of many. So, yes, the first example is an example of discrimination (possibly non-intentional), while the second could be caused by choices (there are probably other industries where there are many more women than there are men).
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    > The difference is that having a college degree is a more-and-more important requirement for basically everyone not wanting a blue-collar job. I hesitantly suggest that of the people who choose to go into blue-collar work, most are men. (Of the people who go into blue-collar work not because that is what they want but rather because that is simply where their life takes them, I would expect more balanced numbers. I don't have any numbers at all to support any of this.)
- temp453463343 13y ago
  Not only glib but also a false dichotomy. Choosing between two careers, say engineering and being a marine zoologist are equivalent in socially attributed worth and both require a similar amount of effort education-wise. Most people wouldn't argue that being an engineer is in an obvious way "better". Choosing between going to college or not, for most people isn't an equal choice. The vast majority of people view going to college as a better option.
lewispollard 13y ago
> Isn't it wonderful how easy it is to ignore that college education is biased towards women and women's needs , and that men are put at a giant disadvantage when it comes to education. [citation needed]
- bobsutan 13y ago
  Read The War Against Boys by Christina Hoff Sommers. She wrote that bock over 10 years ago and has tons of examples and references.
  - lewispollard 13y ago
    I have no academic credentials to discredit her writing, and I probably won't read it because I'm not a misguided MRA, but my bullshit alarms are ringing wildly from having read the synopsis. The whole thing seems to be based around a preconceived notion of what a 'boy' should be, and that's flawed in itself.
newnewnew 13y ago
There are a lot of ways that society is biased in favor of women[1][2], including the education and justice systems. But feminism has taken over all the mainstream institutions and right-thinking minds, so it's un-PC to mention it. [1] http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2013/05/13/male-suicide-wheres-the-outcry/ http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2013/05/13/male-s... [2] http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2013/03/20/men-in-decline-means-more-single-moms/ http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2013/03/20/men-in...
- mistercow 13y ago
  Won't somebody please think of teh menz? Of course there are individual examples of advantages that women have over men in various areas. That does not equate to women being advantaged overall. In the world of acting, dwarfs have some advantages over non-dwarfs. For example, a dwarf is far more likely than a non-dwarf to land a role as a dwarf, a christmas elf, a leprechaun, or a villain's creepy little minion. This advantage does not outweigh the disadvantage a dwarf has when trying to find work in any other type of role.
  - dyno12345 13y ago
    > Won't somebody please think of teh menz? Do some people not realize how bigoted this sounds?
    - steveklabnik 13y ago
      That is the entire point of the phrase.
      - papsosouid 13y ago
        That makes no sense. People say that so that everyone will see they are bigots and ignore the rest of what they have to say? If people want to be ignored wouldn't they just not bother posting to begin with? The point of the phrase is to belittle people who dare to suggest that men are not some special privileged class of people who spend their time oppressing women.
svantana 13y ago
That's one way to look at it. A more rational view is that "women skills" or what you might call them, are in higher demand in today's society than traditional male skills such as fighting, being agressive and lifting heavy things. Good riddance.
- kenbellows 13y ago
  Sorry, if those are what we are calling the "traditional male skills", what are "women skills" then? Cooking, cleaning, and child rearing?
  - sp332 13y ago
    Hard data: http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11.pdf http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11.pdf Looks like HR departments, insurance underwriters & clerks, lots of healthcare positions, hostesses & waitstaff, and flight attendants. And as you mentioned, child care and teachers.
    - kenbellows 13y ago
      "Insurance underwriter" doesn't exactly fall under the umbrella of "traditional women's roles". That is, if we're speaking in ancient stereotypes. Hostess and waitress are a bit closer.
      - rayiner 13y ago
        Neither does "accountants and auditors" (60% of whom are women).
        kenbellows 13y ago
        I get the feeling that the point is being missed here.

Timothee 13y ago

Isn't it wonderful how easy it is to ignore that college education is biased towards women and women's needs What do you mean by that? (honestly curious)

draugadrotten 13y ago
Boys have never been in more trouble: They earn 70 percent of the D's and F's that teachers dole out. They make up two thirds of students labeled "learning disabled." They are the culprits in a whopping 9 of 10 alcohol and drug violations and the suspected perpetrators in 4 out of 5 crimes that end up in juvenile court. They account for 80 percent of high school dropouts and attention deficit disorder diagnoses. (Mulrine, A. (2001) Are Boys the Weaker Sex? U.S. News & World Report, 131 (4), 40-48.)
- mistercow 13y ago
  >They account for 80 percent of high school dropouts Bullshit on several levels. First of all, the "never been in more trouble" in the first sentence gives the impression that these are all worsening trends. In fact, school dropout rates have been consistently declining over the last 40 years[0]. Secondly, as of 2009, the dropout rates for males and females were 3.5% and 3.4% respectively, so assuming equal numbers of boys and girls, that's 51% male and 49% female. But that report was published in 2011 and only goes back to 2009. Maybe back in 2001, the most recent year they had data for was 1999. Let's look at what it was then, shall we? Oh look, the split between male/female was 4.6%/5.4%. In other words a sizable majority of high school dropouts were actually female that year (and the year before). At no point in four decades have dropouts been anywhere close to 80% male. >and attention deficit disorder diagnoses. It is likely that the actual rate of ADHD is about equal in males and females[1], and that it is simply more often diagnosed in males. Underdiagnosis of ADHD among girls is a disadvantage for female students, not an advantage. [0] http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2012/2012006.pdf http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2012/2012006.pdf [1] http://psychcentral.com/lib/2010/adhd-and-gender/ http://psychcentral.com/lib/2010/adhd-and-gender/
  - papsosouid 13y ago
    I love that you appear to be genuinely delusional. If we assume boys and girls are equally likely to have ADHD, and we see that boys are diagnosed with it far more often than girls, there are in fact two possible explanations, not just one. You assume it must be that girls are being under-diagnosed, disadvantaging them (which also assumes being diagnosed is beneficial, which is far from clear). It is also quite possible that boys are being over-diagnosed. Normal male behaviour has been stigmatized, and is used to support diagnosis of boys who clearly do not have ADHD. http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/adhd/problems-overdiagnosis-and-overprescribing-adhd http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/adhd/problems-overdiagnosis-...
  - mistercow 13y ago
    A [dead] replier, after being a douche bag about it, made the valid point that the problem could be overdiagnosis of boys rather than underdiagnosis of girls. Two things about that. One is that even in that case, it still doesn't put boys at a disadvantage to girls. There's no indication that treating someone for ADHD when they don't have it will be disadvantageous to them. The second is that contrary to public and media perception, ADHD is probably not overdiagnosed. Hilariously, this commenter supplied the following article: http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/adhd/problems-overdiagnosis-and-overprescribing-adhd http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/adhd/problems-overdiagnosis-... . Apparently s/he did not actually read that article all the way through, or even skip to the concluding paragraph, which begins: >The public’s fear that ADHD is overdiagnosed and that stimulants are overprescribed is not generally supported by the current scientific research.
- dspillett 13y ago
  That doesn't indicate that collage education is biased against boy, it just indicates that by the time boys are part of that system they are more likely to be little shits who won't be helped. In my experience (caveat: I'm a man who admits to knowing little of women, haven't been young myself for some time, and don't have kids, so take my suppositions with a grain of salt) boys seem both more inclined to follow bad examples from the "role models" available and less likely to be discouraged from doing so ("boys will be boys!"). There is little the education system can do about this once they get to that age - it needs nipping in the bud earlier than that. I'm not sure who I'd blame for this not happening, probably a mix of the images/sentiments thrown at them by TV/music/whatever and parents not being able/willing to effectively filter that flow - it certain won;t be a single factor answer.

rayiner 13y ago

60% of college students being women = "college education is biased towards women and women's needs." 80% of Silicon Valley engineers being men = "men and women choose different career paths based on preferences." Things that will be said by the same people... Glibness aside, you'll get no argument from me that the disparity in college education between men and women is a problem. That said, college attainment among white men from higher income families actually outpaces, slightly, college attainment for white women from higher income families. Much of the college gender gap is driven by 2:1 or greater ratios in college attainment, in favor of women, among blacks and hispanics. The increasing gender gap in college is intricately tied up with the country basically abandoning black and hispanic as well as lower-income white men.

tomp 13y ago
The difference is that having a college degree is a more-and-more important requirement for basically everyone not wanting a blue-collar job. Programmer is just one career choice out of many. So, yes, the first example is an example of discrimination (possibly non-intentional), while the second could be caused by choices (there are probably other industries where there are many more women than there are men).
- jlgreco 13y ago
  > The difference is that having a college degree is a more-and-more important requirement for basically everyone not wanting a blue-collar job. I hesitantly suggest that of the people who choose to go into blue-collar work, most are men. (Of the people who go into blue-collar work not because that is what they want but rather because that is simply where their life takes them, I would expect more balanced numbers. I don't have any numbers at all to support any of this.)
temp453463343 13y ago
Not only glib but also a false dichotomy. Choosing between two careers, say engineering and being a marine zoologist are equivalent in socially attributed worth and both require a similar amount of effort education-wise. Most people wouldn't argue that being an engineer is in an obvious way "better". Choosing between going to college or not, for most people isn't an equal choice. The vast majority of people view going to college as a better option.

lewispollard 13y ago

> Isn't it wonderful how easy it is to ignore that college education is biased towards women and women's needs , and that men are put at a giant disadvantage when it comes to education. [citation needed]

bobsutan 13y ago
Read The War Against Boys by Christina Hoff Sommers. She wrote that bock over 10 years ago and has tons of examples and references.
- lewispollard 13y ago
  I have no academic credentials to discredit her writing, and I probably won't read it because I'm not a misguided MRA, but my bullshit alarms are ringing wildly from having read the synopsis. The whole thing seems to be based around a preconceived notion of what a 'boy' should be, and that's flawed in itself.

newnewnew 13y ago

There are a lot of ways that society is biased in favor of women[1][2], including the education and justice systems. But feminism has taken over all the mainstream institutions and right-thinking minds, so it's un-PC to mention it. [1] http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2013/05/13/male-suicide-wheres-the-outcry/ http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2013/05/13/male-s... [2] http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2013/03/20/men-in-decline-means-more-single-moms/ http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2013/03/20/men-in...

mistercow 13y ago
Won't somebody please think of teh menz? Of course there are individual examples of advantages that women have over men in various areas. That does not equate to women being advantaged overall. In the world of acting, dwarfs have some advantages over non-dwarfs. For example, a dwarf is far more likely than a non-dwarf to land a role as a dwarf, a christmas elf, a leprechaun, or a villain's creepy little minion. This advantage does not outweigh the disadvantage a dwarf has when trying to find work in any other type of role.
- dyno12345 13y ago
  > Won't somebody please think of teh menz? Do some people not realize how bigoted this sounds?
  - steveklabnik 13y ago
    That is the entire point of the phrase.
    - papsosouid 13y ago
      That makes no sense. People say that so that everyone will see they are bigots and ignore the rest of what they have to say? If people want to be ignored wouldn't they just not bother posting to begin with? The point of the phrase is to belittle people who dare to suggest that men are not some special privileged class of people who spend their time oppressing women.

svantana 13y ago

That's one way to look at it. A more rational view is that "women skills" or what you might call them, are in higher demand in today's society than traditional male skills such as fighting, being agressive and lifting heavy things. Good riddance.

kenbellows 13y ago
Sorry, if those are what we are calling the "traditional male skills", what are "women skills" then? Cooking, cleaning, and child rearing?
- sp332 13y ago
  Hard data: http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11.pdf http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11.pdf Looks like HR departments, insurance underwriters & clerks, lots of healthcare positions, hostesses & waitstaff, and flight attendants. And as you mentioned, child care and teachers.
  - kenbellows 13y ago
    "Insurance underwriter" doesn't exactly fall under the umbrella of "traditional women's roles". That is, if we're speaking in ancient stereotypes. Hostess and waitress are a bit closer.
    - rayiner 13y ago
      Neither does "accountants and auditors" (60% of whom are women).
      - kenbellows 13y ago
        I get the feeling that the point is being missed here.