8 ms·

'World's oldest calendar' discovered in Scottish field

58 points by pg 13y ago

DanBC 13y ago
Here's a link to the rough area in Google Maps. (https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=7390+9670+Crathes+Castle,+Crathes&hl=en&ll=57.062834,-2.441239&spn=0.014304,0.037336&sll=57.060553,-2.431401&sspn=0.003576,0.009334&t=h&hq=7390+9670+Crathes+Castle,+Crathes&z=15 https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=7390+9670+Crathes+Castle,+C...) Google Maps can't find Warren Field. I thought it was under the river, but this link shows it's near Miller's Ward Wood. (http://canmore.rcahms.gov.uk/en/site/36670/details/crathes/ http://canmore.rcahms.gov.uk/en/site/36670/details/crathes/) (http://www.aberdeenshire.gov.uk/smrpub/shire/print.aspx?refno=NO79NW0013 http://www.aberdeenshire.gov.uk/smrpub/shire/print.aspx?refn...) (http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=6134 http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=6134) Are there any crowd-sourced "find crop marks" programmes?
arethuza 13y ago
Interesting to note that this was built not that long after the end of the Younger Dryas period (also known as the Loch Lomond Re-advance here in the UK) - so the landscape would have been quite different to what can be seen today, in particular this is before the pine forests of Scotland has a chance to re-grow.
- aerique 13y ago
  Could you expand a bit of what I am supposed to be reading between the lines here? (If there's anything to read between the lines. I'm not trying to be a smart-ass going for karma here, I'm genuinely curious.)
  - arethuza 13y ago
    The Loch Lomond Re-advance was a relatively short period of colder weather than happened after the warming at the end of the last major ice age - this ended ~11,500 years ago. During the Loch Lomond Re-advance there was a large ice sheet in Western Scotland and smaller ones elsewhere but the country was mainly ice free. Obviously, the conditions during this time were much colder than today so flora and fauna were quite different and it took quite a long time for the species we think of as being "natural" for Scotland to re-establish themselves. So the landscape that these people would have been living in was still "recovering" from glaciation and may have been quite different to what we see today - which I find fascinating. NB I had a copy of "Land of Mountain and Flood - The Geology and Landforms of Scotland" handy when I was reading HN over breakfast. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Younger_Dryas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Younger_Dryas http://www.slideshare.net/aland/loch-lomond-readvance http://www.slideshare.net/aland/loch-lomond-readvance [NB I am from the North East of Scotland and fascinated by geology and archeology - so I was pretty excited to see this on HN!]
    - aerique 13y ago
      Thank you!
JacobAldridge 13y ago
I walked among the stones at Stonehenge about a year ago - was a great experience. I was particularly interested to learn that the focus of that famous site was Midwinter not the Summer Solstice. Warren Field, based on this article, seemed to have a similar seasonal focus for resetting the calendar. At Stonehenge, the reasoning is that a midwinter, inter-tribal celebration brought neighbouring tribes together at a time when they were not planting, harvesting, or warring. The Winter solstice was also, perhaps, a time to honour the dead. Of course, there's a lot more to Stonehenge and I assume to Warren Field. But I wonder if there are some parallels to be drawn?
- arethuza 13y ago
  "The Winter solstice was also, perhaps, a time to honour the dead." The ~5000 year old Maeshowe on Orkney is a great example of this - only around the Winter solstice does the sun shine down the entrance passage and illuminate the central chamber: http://www.maeshowe.co.uk/ http://www.maeshowe.co.uk/ http://www.historic-scotland.gov.uk/propertyresults/propertyoverview.htm?PropID=PL_205 http://www.historic-scotland.gov.uk/propertyresults/property... Page with videos of the setting sun shining into Maeshowe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maeshowe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maeshowe
- lostlogin 13y ago
  On the off chance you haven't already done so and aren't aware - try Avebury. I liked it even more. When I was in the UK, any place I was at for more than about a week I bought an ordinance survey map of (think that's what they are called). I saw so many small stone circles, cemetery's, churches, roman walls and building, ruins, canals, etc, it was like a world existed just outside the everyday one. Most memorable was biking to an old american airbase. Ruined buildings, lampposts, but all the ground was grass with sheep wondering around. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avebury http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avebury
  - JacobAldridge 13y ago
    Stonehenge was literally our last day living in London - and also the day I learned about Avebury! Would love to explore that part of British history more next time I'm in that part of the world.
contingencies 13y ago
Interesting. I sometimes wonder if the invention of timekeeping didn't do more harm than good in the world, along the lines of: Humanity's first mistake was counting time. I wonder if anthropologists have found societies without significant temporal verbosity and linked the absence of this property to other cultural features. No research library access :(
- aerique 13y ago
  With the day / night cycle of the sun, the phases of the moon and, for a lot of parts in the world, the seasons I think it is pretty much a given that humans started counting time. I'm pretty curious about any timeless societies as well!
  - yag123 13y ago
    Check out the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirah%C3%A3_people http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirah%C3%A3_people , then.
    - contingencies 13y ago
      Daniel Everett states that one of the strongest Pirahã values is no coercion; you simply don't tell other people what to do. Now that sounds like a great society!
    - dfc 13y ago
      What is it that we are checking out? The only mention of time is to a Der Speigel article that is 404ing.
      - yag123 13y ago
        The society itself; the Wikipedia article only glancing mentions this aspect of society. "Don't sleep, there are snakes" is worth a read.
        13y ago
lmm 13y ago
Is it me or does that picture look like a low-quality photoshop? I feel like manipulated images should have a disclaimer on them.
- RossM 13y ago
  Assuming you mean the first image, it does say "an artist's impression".
timlukins 13y ago
Interestingly, other early monuments in the locality - such as Rothiemay recumbent stone circle - have been supposed to align with astronomical events and, consequently, evidence of early horology. http://canmore.rcahms.gov.uk/en/details/1114898/ http://canmore.rcahms.gov.uk/en/details/1114898/ http://canmore.rcahms.gov.uk/en/site/17820/digital_images/rothiemay/ http://canmore.rcahms.gov.uk/en/site/17820/digital_images/ro... This is a later monument, but to my mind still an indication of "pre-historic science" - and just how advanced it could be. As an aside, I was always pleasingly intrigued by the fact that Rothiemay was furthermore the birthplace of James Ferguson... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Ferguson_(1710–1776) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Ferguson_(1710–1776)
- arethuza 13y ago
  One of my favourite ancient artefacts in that area is the Tap o' Noth - a large vitrified fort - the rocks making up the huge walls apparently having been intentionally melted: http://canmore.rcahms.gov.uk/en/site/17169/details/tap+o+noth/ http://canmore.rcahms.gov.uk/en/site/17169/details/tap+o+not... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tap_o%27_Noth http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tap_o%27_Noth The Tap formed my own mental image of Tolkien's Weathertop :-)
  - timlukins 13y ago
    Exactly my own visualisation of Weathertop when growing up in the area! Personally, I think vitrification was a product of accident/attack rather than direct intent...
    - arethuza 13y ago
      I was going by this Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitrified_fort http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitrified_fort "Most archaeologists now consider that vitrified forts are the product of deliberate destruction either following the capture of the site by an enemy force or by the occupants at the end of its active life as an act of ritual closure" I suspect the real answer is that nobody really has any idea how or why this was done - which makes it all the more fascinating :-)

58 points by pg 13y ago

DanBC 13y ago

Here's a link to the rough area in Google Maps. (https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=7390+9670+Crathes+Castle,+Crathes&hl=en&ll=57.062834,-2.441239&spn=0.014304,0.037336&sll=57.060553,-2.431401&sspn=0.003576,0.009334&t=h&hq=7390+9670+Crathes+Castle,+Crathes&z=15 https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=7390+9670+Crathes+Castle,+C...) Google Maps can't find Warren Field. I thought it was under the river, but this link shows it's near Miller's Ward Wood. (http://canmore.rcahms.gov.uk/en/site/36670/details/crathes/ http://canmore.rcahms.gov.uk/en/site/36670/details/crathes/) (http://www.aberdeenshire.gov.uk/smrpub/shire/print.aspx?refno=NO79NW0013 http://www.aberdeenshire.gov.uk/smrpub/shire/print.aspx?refn...) (http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=6134 http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=6134) Are there any crowd-sourced "find crop marks" programmes?

arethuza 13y ago

Interesting to note that this was built not that long after the end of the Younger Dryas period (also known as the Loch Lomond Re-advance here in the UK) - so the landscape would have been quite different to what can be seen today, in particular this is before the pine forests of Scotland has a chance to re-grow.

aerique 13y ago
Could you expand a bit of what I am supposed to be reading between the lines here? (If there's anything to read between the lines. I'm not trying to be a smart-ass going for karma here, I'm genuinely curious.)
- arethuza 13y ago
  The Loch Lomond Re-advance was a relatively short period of colder weather than happened after the warming at the end of the last major ice age - this ended ~11,500 years ago. During the Loch Lomond Re-advance there was a large ice sheet in Western Scotland and smaller ones elsewhere but the country was mainly ice free. Obviously, the conditions during this time were much colder than today so flora and fauna were quite different and it took quite a long time for the species we think of as being "natural" for Scotland to re-establish themselves. So the landscape that these people would have been living in was still "recovering" from glaciation and may have been quite different to what we see today - which I find fascinating. NB I had a copy of "Land of Mountain and Flood - The Geology and Landforms of Scotland" handy when I was reading HN over breakfast. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Younger_Dryas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Younger_Dryas http://www.slideshare.net/aland/loch-lomond-readvance http://www.slideshare.net/aland/loch-lomond-readvance [NB I am from the North East of Scotland and fascinated by geology and archeology - so I was pretty excited to see this on HN!]
  - aerique 13y ago
    Thank you!

JacobAldridge 13y ago

I walked among the stones at Stonehenge about a year ago - was a great experience. I was particularly interested to learn that the focus of that famous site was Midwinter not the Summer Solstice. Warren Field, based on this article, seemed to have a similar seasonal focus for resetting the calendar. At Stonehenge, the reasoning is that a midwinter, inter-tribal celebration brought neighbouring tribes together at a time when they were not planting, harvesting, or warring. The Winter solstice was also, perhaps, a time to honour the dead. Of course, there's a lot more to Stonehenge and I assume to Warren Field. But I wonder if there are some parallels to be drawn?

arethuza 13y ago
"The Winter solstice was also, perhaps, a time to honour the dead." The ~5000 year old Maeshowe on Orkney is a great example of this - only around the Winter solstice does the sun shine down the entrance passage and illuminate the central chamber: http://www.maeshowe.co.uk/ http://www.maeshowe.co.uk/ http://www.historic-scotland.gov.uk/propertyresults/propertyoverview.htm?PropID=PL_205 http://www.historic-scotland.gov.uk/propertyresults/property... Page with videos of the setting sun shining into Maeshowe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maeshowe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maeshowe
lostlogin 13y ago
On the off chance you haven't already done so and aren't aware - try Avebury. I liked it even more. When I was in the UK, any place I was at for more than about a week I bought an ordinance survey map of (think that's what they are called). I saw so many small stone circles, cemetery's, churches, roman walls and building, ruins, canals, etc, it was like a world existed just outside the everyday one. Most memorable was biking to an old american airbase. Ruined buildings, lampposts, but all the ground was grass with sheep wondering around. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avebury http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avebury
- JacobAldridge 13y ago
  Stonehenge was literally our last day living in London - and also the day I learned about Avebury! Would love to explore that part of British history more next time I'm in that part of the world.

contingencies 13y ago

Interesting. I sometimes wonder if the invention of timekeeping didn't do more harm than good in the world, along the lines of: Humanity's first mistake was counting time. I wonder if anthropologists have found societies without significant temporal verbosity and linked the absence of this property to other cultural features. No research library access :(

aerique 13y ago
With the day / night cycle of the sun, the phases of the moon and, for a lot of parts in the world, the seasons I think it is pretty much a given that humans started counting time. I'm pretty curious about any timeless societies as well!
- yag123 13y ago
  Check out the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirah%C3%A3_people http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirah%C3%A3_people , then.
  - contingencies 13y ago
    Daniel Everett states that one of the strongest Pirahã values is no coercion; you simply don't tell other people what to do. Now that sounds like a great society!
  - dfc 13y ago
    What is it that we are checking out? The only mention of time is to a Der Speigel article that is 404ing.
    - yag123 13y ago
      The society itself; the Wikipedia article only glancing mentions this aspect of society. "Don't sleep, there are snakes" is worth a read.
      - 13y ago

lmm 13y ago

Is it me or does that picture look like a low-quality photoshop? I feel like manipulated images should have a disclaimer on them.

RossM 13y ago
Assuming you mean the first image, it does say "an artist's impression".

timlukins 13y ago

Interestingly, other early monuments in the locality - such as Rothiemay recumbent stone circle - have been supposed to align with astronomical events and, consequently, evidence of early horology. http://canmore.rcahms.gov.uk/en/details/1114898/ http://canmore.rcahms.gov.uk/en/details/1114898/ http://canmore.rcahms.gov.uk/en/site/17820/digital_images/rothiemay/ http://canmore.rcahms.gov.uk/en/site/17820/digital_images/ro... This is a later monument, but to my mind still an indication of "pre-historic science" - and just how advanced it could be. As an aside, I was always pleasingly intrigued by the fact that Rothiemay was furthermore the birthplace of James Ferguson... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Ferguson_(1710–1776) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Ferguson_(1710–1776)

arethuza 13y ago
One of my favourite ancient artefacts in that area is the Tap o' Noth - a large vitrified fort - the rocks making up the huge walls apparently having been intentionally melted: http://canmore.rcahms.gov.uk/en/site/17169/details/tap+o+noth/ http://canmore.rcahms.gov.uk/en/site/17169/details/tap+o+not... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tap_o%27_Noth http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tap_o%27_Noth The Tap formed my own mental image of Tolkien's Weathertop :-)
- timlukins 13y ago
  Exactly my own visualisation of Weathertop when growing up in the area! Personally, I think vitrification was a product of accident/attack rather than direct intent...
  - arethuza 13y ago
    I was going by this Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitrified_fort http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitrified_fort "Most archaeologists now consider that vitrified forts are the product of deliberate destruction either following the capture of the site by an enemy force or by the occupants at the end of its active life as an act of ritual closure" I suspect the real answer is that nobody really has any idea how or why this was done - which makes it all the more fascinating :-)