9 ms·

Conversely, in Sweden where it is indeed mostly free that has created a culture where university is just "something you do" and where the education provided is

Conversely, in Sweden where it is indeed mostly free that has created a culture where university is just "something you do" and where the education provided is not valued in the same way by students and has become commoditized in a way which I would argue is detrimental. There's a balance to be struck somewhere. I'm from Sweden but studying in the UK and I think the university culture here is far superior. That being said the recent hike in fees here is probably a move in the wrong direction.

Heliosmaster 13y ago
maybe the key is not an increase in fees, but in a stricter admission. Even in Italy everybody does university, even the ones that do not want to study: they find some subject like "political sciences" and lower down the level of the degree.
- ndr 13y ago
  I'd like to see some numbers about `in Italy everybody does university`, maybe also showing how most people do "political science" sort of thing and how THAT is supposed to lower down the level of the degree, because it looks made up. OTH It's true that a lot of people drop out or take way longer than they are supposed to graduate. In that I agree using a stricter admission we could let fewer people to get university education but there would be more funds to treat them better.
- fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
  >maybe the key is not an increase in fees, but in a stricter admission. Or, better alternatives. How do you make skilled trades more attractive?
  - rdouble 13y ago
    High paying jobs available in those trades.
    - fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
      Right, but good plumbers don't usually get the respect of a bad philosopher. And as far as that goes, education in the trades often fails to prepare the plumbers adequately for say, running their own plumbing business.
      - glogla 13y ago
        That remind me of one of my friends, who went to do MBA ... so he can be more successful carpenter.
        fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
        >who went to do MBA ... so he can be more successful carpenter. Really? Wow. How did that work out for him?
        glogla 13y ago
        He was running his carpentry business (starting from being one guy in garage and coming to several employees) so it's hard to say, but lately he talks about his new BMW a lot, so I guess it worked :)
      - derleth 13y ago
        > Right, but good plumbers don't usually get the respect of a bad philosopher. Good physicists don't usually get the respect of bad philosophers, and vice-versa. This isn't really a problem you can solve using the university system, as far as I can see. > And as far as that goes, education in the trades often fails to prepare the plumbers adequately for say, running their own plumbing business. This, on the other hand, is a very good point. I'd like to expand on it, in fact: Beginning in grade school, there should be "Adult Living" courses that introduce kids to the kinds of things they'll be expected to know the first day they're on their own. Think of it as Home Economics with basic law (family law, what abuse is, what mortgages and contracts are, rental property law), real practical economics (budgeting, not balancing checkbooks), basic home maintenance (stuff that's also useful for apartment-dwellers) and, generally, a lot of diverse stuff that you have to know to avoid getting ripped off and/or laughed at and/or killed when you're living by yourself. You can say that the parents should be teaching this stuff. I agree, but you can say exactly the same thing about arithmetic and English, and we have the schools teach that stuff. More to the point, some kids kinda have shitty or ignorant or stupid parents, so they don't get the same education out of them others do.

Heliosmaster 13y ago

maybe the key is not an increase in fees, but in a stricter admission. Even in Italy everybody does university, even the ones that do not want to study: they find some subject like "political sciences" and lower down the level of the degree.

ndr 13y ago
I'd like to see some numbers about `in Italy everybody does university`, maybe also showing how most people do "political science" sort of thing and how THAT is supposed to lower down the level of the degree, because it looks made up. OTH It's true that a lot of people drop out or take way longer than they are supposed to graduate. In that I agree using a stricter admission we could let fewer people to get university education but there would be more funds to treat them better.
fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
>maybe the key is not an increase in fees, but in a stricter admission. Or, better alternatives. How do you make skilled trades more attractive?
- rdouble 13y ago
  High paying jobs available in those trades.
  - fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
    Right, but good plumbers don't usually get the respect of a bad philosopher. And as far as that goes, education in the trades often fails to prepare the plumbers adequately for say, running their own plumbing business.
    - glogla 13y ago
      That remind me of one of my friends, who went to do MBA ... so he can be more successful carpenter.
      - fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
        >who went to do MBA ... so he can be more successful carpenter. Really? Wow. How did that work out for him?
        glogla 13y ago
        He was running his carpentry business (starting from being one guy in garage and coming to several employees) so it's hard to say, but lately he talks about his new BMW a lot, so I guess it worked :)
    - derleth 13y ago
      > Right, but good plumbers don't usually get the respect of a bad philosopher. Good physicists don't usually get the respect of bad philosophers, and vice-versa. This isn't really a problem you can solve using the university system, as far as I can see. > And as far as that goes, education in the trades often fails to prepare the plumbers adequately for say, running their own plumbing business. This, on the other hand, is a very good point. I'd like to expand on it, in fact: Beginning in grade school, there should be "Adult Living" courses that introduce kids to the kinds of things they'll be expected to know the first day they're on their own. Think of it as Home Economics with basic law (family law, what abuse is, what mortgages and contracts are, rental property law), real practical economics (budgeting, not balancing checkbooks), basic home maintenance (stuff that's also useful for apartment-dwellers) and, generally, a lot of diverse stuff that you have to know to avoid getting ripped off and/or laughed at and/or killed when you're living by yourself. You can say that the parents should be teaching this stuff. I agree, but you can say exactly the same thing about arithmetic and English, and we have the schools teach that stuff. More to the point, some kids kinda have shitty or ignorant or stupid parents, so they don't get the same education out of them others do.