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> We didn’t even invent modern democracy. There were parliamentary systems in England and other parts of Europe over a hundred years before we created governmen

> We didn’t even invent modern democracy. There were parliamentary systems in England and other parts of Europe over a hundred years before we created government. AFAIK, England's parliament, prior to the US, could not remotely be described as a democracy. Indeed, it was well over a hundred years later that this would be the case. I have no idea what he means by "other parts of Europe". My best guess would be San Marino, which has had a democratic-ish thing going for a very long time. But San Marino was (and indeed is) pretty far from a modern democracy in any sense of the term. The US might not have a lot of things going for it. But I think it's fair to say that it's the first modern democracy.

elo 13y ago
> I have no idea what he means by "other parts of Europe". Iceland perhaps?
- SeanLuke 13y ago
  Yeah, the Althing, I suppose. But while this was an early parliament, it was largely hereditary.
nawitus 13y ago
The U.S. can be called a modern democracy only after 1920, when the 19th Amendment was ratified.
- rmc 13y ago
  You mean before black people could regularly excersise their vote?
jivatmanx 13y ago
Since the Glorious Revolution of 1688, English Bill of Rights 1689, the Monarchy never since had absolute power, there was always a powerful parliament. The English Civil War, a few decades earlier, was fought between pro-parliament (Oliver Cromwell) and pro-monarchist forces. Without these events, it's unlikely the U.S. would have been founded explicitly as a Republic. As it was, Alexander Hamilton and other Federalists argued at the constitutional convention for an elective monarchy. (Which is why the presidency is more powerful than the anti-federalists and others would have liked)
- rmc 13y ago
  Or the Magna Carta of 11something
  - jivatmanx 13y ago
    1215. There is actually a lesser known document called the "Charter of Liberties" from 1100. It was entirely ignored but was critical influence for the Magna Carta. The Magna Carta was also basically ignored, but was utterly critical for the English Bill of Rights, which really has been followed, till this day.
    - rmc 13y ago
      And you can make out that (parts of( the US Declaration of Independence was also ignored: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.". Just ask any slave living under that constitution! Isn't history fun! And nuanced! And grey!
      - jivatmanx 13y ago
        Fully 30% of Jefferson's Original Declaration was truncated. It explicitly denounced slavery and blamed it on Britain. That caused him great trouble. Till his death, he insisted that be the version preserved for posterity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Declaration_of_Independence#Slavery_and_the_Declaration http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Declaration_of_In...
TomaszZielinski 13y ago
> The US might not have a lot of things going for it. But I think it's fair to say that it's the first modern democracy. What about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Lithuanian_Commonwealth#State_organization_and_politics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Lithuanian_Commo... ?
rmc 13y ago
AFAIK, England's parliament, prior to the US, could not remotely be described as a democracy. Indeed, it was well over a hundred years later that this would be the case. How? When the USA got independence it basically copied the UK voting/parliament system, only allowing white men who owned property to voting, just like UK. Of course, it depends on definition of "democracy". But I can't see how you can have a definition that would hold the following things all true: "(a) The UK is a democracy in 2013 (b) The USA was a democracy in 1776 (c) The UK was not a democracy in 1776 (d) The UK was not a democracy for ~100 years after 1776" (I use the term UK, but don't think it was called that in 1776)

elo 13y ago

> I have no idea what he means by "other parts of Europe". Iceland perhaps?

SeanLuke 13y ago
Yeah, the Althing, I suppose. But while this was an early parliament, it was largely hereditary.

nawitus 13y ago

The U.S. can be called a modern democracy only after 1920, when the 19th Amendment was ratified.

rmc 13y ago
You mean before black people could regularly excersise their vote?

jivatmanx 13y ago

Since the Glorious Revolution of 1688, English Bill of Rights 1689, the Monarchy never since had absolute power, there was always a powerful parliament. The English Civil War, a few decades earlier, was fought between pro-parliament (Oliver Cromwell) and pro-monarchist forces. Without these events, it's unlikely the U.S. would have been founded explicitly as a Republic. As it was, Alexander Hamilton and other Federalists argued at the constitutional convention for an elective monarchy. (Which is why the presidency is more powerful than the anti-federalists and others would have liked)

rmc 13y ago
Or the Magna Carta of 11something
- jivatmanx 13y ago
  1215. There is actually a lesser known document called the "Charter of Liberties" from 1100. It was entirely ignored but was critical influence for the Magna Carta. The Magna Carta was also basically ignored, but was utterly critical for the English Bill of Rights, which really has been followed, till this day.
  - rmc 13y ago
    And you can make out that (parts of( the US Declaration of Independence was also ignored: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.". Just ask any slave living under that constitution! Isn't history fun! And nuanced! And grey!
    - jivatmanx 13y ago
      Fully 30% of Jefferson's Original Declaration was truncated. It explicitly denounced slavery and blamed it on Britain. That caused him great trouble. Till his death, he insisted that be the version preserved for posterity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Declaration_of_Independence#Slavery_and_the_Declaration http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Declaration_of_In...

TomaszZielinski 13y ago

> The US might not have a lot of things going for it. But I think it's fair to say that it's the first modern democracy. What about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Lithuanian_Commonwealth#State_organization_and_politics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Lithuanian_Commo... ?

rmc 13y ago

AFAIK, England's parliament, prior to the US, could not remotely be described as a democracy. Indeed, it was well over a hundred years later that this would be the case. How? When the USA got independence it basically copied the UK voting/parliament system, only allowing white men who owned property to voting, just like UK. Of course, it depends on definition of "democracy". But I can't see how you can have a definition that would hold the following things all true: "(a) The UK is a democracy in 2013 (b) The USA was a democracy in 1776 (c) The UK was not a democracy in 1776 (d) The UK was not a democracy for ~100 years after 1776" (I use the term UK, but don't think it was called that in 1776)