4 ms·

There absolutely is an easy, obvious way to fix it. It's just something that gives men the screaming meemies. Quotas. Don't give me guff about "the best perso

There absolutely is an easy, obvious way to fix it. It's just something that gives men the screaming meemies. Quotas. Don't give me guff about "the best person for the job". You've been picking the best man for the job.

Scaevolus 13y ago
Would the quotas be proportional to the applicant pool's huge gender gaps? Only ~20% of CS graduates are women.
- JulianMorrison 13y ago
  If it were me, I'd set a strict, cast-iron, no excuses 50% for the first, say, 50 years. After that things might have calmed down a bit. Demand will drive supply, if needs be. Lack of demand has certainly driven it down.
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    With dramatically higher demand for women programmers, would it be permissible to pay women far more than men? How would this affect gender relations in the workplace? Assuming that currently 20% of programmers are women, would 60% of the current programmer population (or 75% of current male programmers) have to go unemployed until more women had entered the workforce? Following from my first question: if we think paying men and women differently is a-okay, what would this 25/75 split do to the salary of male programmers? How would this affect gender relations in the workplace? Would these same quotas apply to universities as well? How would the market react to universities making cuts in graduation rates to accommodate occasional fluctuations in the woman student population? What kind of grace periods and permitted lag would be allowed? If I fired a woman, would I have to fire a man to make up for it that same day? That same week? That same month? Would I just have to refill that position with another woman? What if I decided to eliminate that role entirely? I am not convinced that you have put thought into your proposal. It makes for a good sound bite and I don't doubt that your intentions are noble, but it is not a good idea.
    - klipt 13y ago
      > Would these same quotas apply to universities as well? Most universities actually have more women students overall. So applying quotas to all fields would reduce female enrollment in many of them.
falcolas 13y ago
Women are picking the best man for the job as well. "The gender of the faculty participants did not affect responses, such that female and male faculty were equally likely to exhibit bias against the female student." http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/09/14/1211286109#aff-1 http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/09/14/1211286109#aff-...
- JulianMorrison 13y ago
  Yup. I don't dispute that. Quotas would work against that too. Quotas really are quite a multifaceted fix. - Directly and immediately drive up numbers. - Create a demand for women that pulls the supply. - Create a supply of women leaders with experience and skills. - And create somewhere for them to go, so they don't get discouraged and quit. - Change people's mental image of working with/for women from abstract and theoretical to specific and personal. Overwrite their stereotypes with actual experience. This goes for both men and women.
  - jack-r-abbit 13y ago
    You forgot one: - Cause some coworkers to resent a person for being hired just to fill a quota rather than on merit.
    - prodigal_erik 13y ago
      This. Nothing would cement widespread sexism more than forcing everyone to work around a highly visible influx of unqualified women. We've already seen outsourcing reinforce racism, as bottom-feeding scammers exploit clients' inability to screen out unqualified contract development shops, and the rank and file here assume there are no smart people from that country simply because they only got to work with the bench warmers hired at random by the lowest bidders. If you want 50% of qualified candidates to be women, you have to find the nerdy girls in middle school with the aptitude and give them the latitude to develop the obsession the way boys can. Nobody who starts in college because they're chasing dollar signs is going to be very good.
    - JulianMorrison 13y ago

Scaevolus 13y ago

Would the quotas be proportional to the applicant pool's huge gender gaps? Only ~20% of CS graduates are women.

JulianMorrison 13y ago
If it were me, I'd set a strict, cast-iron, no excuses 50% for the first, say, 50 years. After that things might have calmed down a bit. Demand will drive supply, if needs be. Lack of demand has certainly driven it down.
- jlgreco 13y ago
  With dramatically higher demand for women programmers, would it be permissible to pay women far more than men? How would this affect gender relations in the workplace? Assuming that currently 20% of programmers are women, would 60% of the current programmer population (or 75% of current male programmers) have to go unemployed until more women had entered the workforce? Following from my first question: if we think paying men and women differently is a-okay, what would this 25/75 split do to the salary of male programmers? How would this affect gender relations in the workplace? Would these same quotas apply to universities as well? How would the market react to universities making cuts in graduation rates to accommodate occasional fluctuations in the woman student population? What kind of grace periods and permitted lag would be allowed? If I fired a woman, would I have to fire a man to make up for it that same day? That same week? That same month? Would I just have to refill that position with another woman? What if I decided to eliminate that role entirely? I am not convinced that you have put thought into your proposal. It makes for a good sound bite and I don't doubt that your intentions are noble, but it is not a good idea.
  - klipt 13y ago
    > Would these same quotas apply to universities as well? Most universities actually have more women students overall. So applying quotas to all fields would reduce female enrollment in many of them.

falcolas 13y ago

Women are picking the best man for the job as well. "The gender of the faculty participants did not affect responses, such that female and male faculty were equally likely to exhibit bias against the female student." http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/09/14/1211286109#aff-1 http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/09/14/1211286109#aff-...

JulianMorrison 13y ago
Yup. I don't dispute that. Quotas would work against that too. Quotas really are quite a multifaceted fix. - Directly and immediately drive up numbers. - Create a demand for women that pulls the supply. - Create a supply of women leaders with experience and skills. - And create somewhere for them to go, so they don't get discouraged and quit. - Change people's mental image of working with/for women from abstract and theoretical to specific and personal. Overwrite their stereotypes with actual experience. This goes for both men and women.
- jack-r-abbit 13y ago
  You forgot one: - Cause some coworkers to resent a person for being hired just to fill a quota rather than on merit.
  - prodigal_erik 13y ago
    This. Nothing would cement widespread sexism more than forcing everyone to work around a highly visible influx of unqualified women. We've already seen outsourcing reinforce racism, as bottom-feeding scammers exploit clients' inability to screen out unqualified contract development shops, and the rank and file here assume there are no smart people from that country simply because they only got to work with the bench warmers hired at random by the lowest bidders. If you want 50% of qualified candidates to be women, you have to find the nerdy girls in middle school with the aptitude and give them the latitude to develop the obsession the way boys can. Nobody who starts in college because they're chasing dollar signs is going to be very good.
  - JulianMorrison 13y ago