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And to nobody's surprise it becomes obvious why college labs are always TA'd by people who can't speak English. (Which in turn leads to more frustrated students

And to nobody's surprise it becomes obvious why college labs are always TA'd by people who can't speak English. (Which in turn leads to more frustrated students quitting STEM fields...)

keithpeter 13y ago
Do US Universities not have a language test/requirement at entry? UK Universities do I think [1] is just the first example I came across [1] http://www.ed.ac.uk/studying/international/english/postgraduate/science-engineering http://www.ed.ac.uk/studying/international/english/postgradu...
- bluewres 13y ago
  Some universities do, but it's not a nationally mandated thing as far as I know. I'm a domestic graduate student at a university that requires TOEFL scores (http://www.ets.org/toefl http://www.ets.org/toefl) and my department is rumored to have a policy of calling international students they are strongly considering in order to double check they can hold an intelligible conversation in English. That said, you can still get students who aren't very strong in "conversational/professional speaking level" English who pass through these requirements.
HarryHirsch 13y ago
At good places you sometimes run into professors that you have difficulty understanding. At bad places they won't recruit professors that you have difficulty understanding because the darling students will complain. That complaint of yours - it says more about the fellow who makes it that it does about the TAs.
- WalterSear 13y ago
  I had a calculus TA at Berkeley whose English was so poor that she would respond to questions from Chinese students in Chinese. When she didn't understand your question in English, she would make a blind guess as what you were asking about and then answer that, speaking as fast as she could so that you couldn't interrupt her to tell her that she wasn't answering your question. This would continue until you gave up.
  - HarryHirsch 13y ago
    I had a similar experience in an Algorithms class, where the TA had a firm grasp of perhaps 70 % of the material she was supposed to teach. This person was an American citizen, though. When I was discussing the quality of TAs with the Instructional Director in our department this episode came up, and she was deliciously cynical. "The students are resilient", she said. This is true. At university you are supposed to work yourself and to create learning networks with your fellow students yourself. It isn't highschool any longer, especially not at Berkeley.
    - fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
      >"The students are resilient" translation: These are the TA's we can afford.
      - WalterSear 13y ago
        I'd translate it as: All I actually care about is getting to sit in this chair from 9-to-5 until retirement.
      - HarryHirsch 13y ago
        > These are the TA's we can afford. Almost. It's more like "At Doldrum Hills State a fair amount of undergraduates are decent, but their graduate program is shit, and everyone in there is awful."
    - WalterSear 13y ago
      Right: it's my fault for not learning Mandarin to take calculus. And by the same logic, it's my fault for not figuring out how to cheat on all my exams. Schools are for learning, not hazing. This kind of neglect can't be excused as some kafka-esque "character building" exercise.
      - HarryHirsch 13y ago
        The point of a university is to master the subject by any means necessary, which includes building up your professional and social network. This point was impressed upon us in our first week at uni. We were encouraged by profs and TAs to set up informal learning groups, if we didn't we weren't going to cope with the pressure. I keep telling my students the same. I hate to say this, but it must be said: anyone who calls dealing with an incompetent TA "hazing" when he is at a genuine university like Berkeley has missed something. Didn't you have fellow students to talk to to be able to pass Calculus? I know there are not-universities, and anyone who passes through these is cheated, but Berkeley isn't among the not-universities.
hdra 13y ago
Is the situation really that bad? When I look into admission requirements for most universities in the West, most requires some kind of minimum score in TOEFL/ IELTS.
- Glyptodon 13y ago
  I can confirm that people sometimes mysteriously pass them without being able to speak a single word that an average native speaker can understand. Do they have an actual spoken portion, or are they all written?
KeepTalking 13y ago
As far as I know and observed applications to TA positions are fairly democratic. I know of a recent instance where the professor had to accept the only TA application he received because no one else applied. If you still have a problem there are many readdress systems in colleges to challenge such situations. It would be more constructive to provide proof to your claim.

And to nobody's surprise it becomes obvious why college labs are always TA'd by people who can't speak English. (Which in turn leads to more frustrated students quitting STEM fields...)

keithpeter 13y ago

Do US Universities not have a language test/requirement at entry? UK Universities do I think [1] is just the first example I came across [1] http://www.ed.ac.uk/studying/international/english/postgraduate/science-engineering http://www.ed.ac.uk/studying/international/english/postgradu...

bluewres 13y ago
Some universities do, but it's not a nationally mandated thing as far as I know. I'm a domestic graduate student at a university that requires TOEFL scores (http://www.ets.org/toefl http://www.ets.org/toefl) and my department is rumored to have a policy of calling international students they are strongly considering in order to double check they can hold an intelligible conversation in English. That said, you can still get students who aren't very strong in "conversational/professional speaking level" English who pass through these requirements.

HarryHirsch 13y ago

At good places you sometimes run into professors that you have difficulty understanding. At bad places they won't recruit professors that you have difficulty understanding because the darling students will complain. That complaint of yours - it says more about the fellow who makes it that it does about the TAs.

WalterSear 13y ago
I had a calculus TA at Berkeley whose English was so poor that she would respond to questions from Chinese students in Chinese. When she didn't understand your question in English, she would make a blind guess as what you were asking about and then answer that, speaking as fast as she could so that you couldn't interrupt her to tell her that she wasn't answering your question. This would continue until you gave up.
- HarryHirsch 13y ago
  I had a similar experience in an Algorithms class, where the TA had a firm grasp of perhaps 70 % of the material she was supposed to teach. This person was an American citizen, though. When I was discussing the quality of TAs with the Instructional Director in our department this episode came up, and she was deliciously cynical. "The students are resilient", she said. This is true. At university you are supposed to work yourself and to create learning networks with your fellow students yourself. It isn't highschool any longer, especially not at Berkeley.
  - fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
    >"The students are resilient" translation: These are the TA's we can afford.
    - WalterSear 13y ago
      I'd translate it as: All I actually care about is getting to sit in this chair from 9-to-5 until retirement.
    - HarryHirsch 13y ago
      > These are the TA's we can afford. Almost. It's more like "At Doldrum Hills State a fair amount of undergraduates are decent, but their graduate program is shit, and everyone in there is awful."
  - WalterSear 13y ago
    Right: it's my fault for not learning Mandarin to take calculus. And by the same logic, it's my fault for not figuring out how to cheat on all my exams. Schools are for learning, not hazing. This kind of neglect can't be excused as some kafka-esque "character building" exercise.
    - HarryHirsch 13y ago
      The point of a university is to master the subject by any means necessary, which includes building up your professional and social network. This point was impressed upon us in our first week at uni. We were encouraged by profs and TAs to set up informal learning groups, if we didn't we weren't going to cope with the pressure. I keep telling my students the same. I hate to say this, but it must be said: anyone who calls dealing with an incompetent TA "hazing" when he is at a genuine university like Berkeley has missed something. Didn't you have fellow students to talk to to be able to pass Calculus? I know there are not-universities, and anyone who passes through these is cheated, but Berkeley isn't among the not-universities.

hdra 13y ago

Is the situation really that bad? When I look into admission requirements for most universities in the West, most requires some kind of minimum score in TOEFL/ IELTS.

Glyptodon 13y ago
I can confirm that people sometimes mysteriously pass them without being able to speak a single word that an average native speaker can understand. Do they have an actual spoken portion, or are they all written?

KeepTalking 13y ago

As far as I know and observed applications to TA positions are fairly democratic. I know of a recent instance where the professor had to accept the only TA application he received because no one else applied. If you still have a problem there are many readdress systems in colleges to challenge such situations. It would be more constructive to provide proof to your claim.