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There was a proposal going around the Lib Dems in the UK at one point[1] to make it illegal to have names on CVs; because they describe gender, and sometimes ra

There was a proposal going around the Lib Dems in the UK at one point[1] to make it illegal to have names on CVs; because they describe gender, and sometimes race, too. The proposal went on to say that that people should apply for jobs using their National Insurance number (like a social security number, but basically just used as a UID with the tax office - I don't know what else a SSN does, but it seems to be more important than that.) This would mean that candidates selected for the first round of interviews would be chosen 'blind', even in small companies, which would limit this sort of subconscious discrimination. I'd love to see this sort of idea resurrected; the article is an excellent advert as to why. [1] before we got into a coalition with male Tories who think they got into oxbridge on merit...

TeMPOraL 13y ago
It won't work everywhere; e.g. SSN equivalent in Poland has sex encoded as one of the digits (determined by whether it's even or odd).
- WalterSear 13y ago
  If the bias is subconcious, moving to this would still have an effect.
  - nostrademons 13y ago
    People are remarkably good at picking up on subtle signals that correlate well with their existing biases. Instead of "It seems like a women" they'll subconsciously think "It seems like an even."
    - WalterSear 13y ago
      It wouldn't be perfect, but most of the effect would be removed.
- larrys 13y ago
  "SSN equivalent in Poland has sex encoded" That gets supplied when sending a resume?
  - TeMPOraL 13y ago
    It's not. OP wrote about using SSN-like numbers instead of names, so I wanted to note the fact that those number can, and quite often do, encode additional information.
- tehwalrus 13y ago
  In general, it could be enforced as a random identifier generated with each electronic application; this just burdens employers with implementing an electronic applications system, which is too high a regulatory burden (and would make dropping off a CV in person impossible/illegal, which is stupid.) It could be a hash of the persons name, too, but then the public would have to learn what a hash was... NI number works well in the UK, because it's convenient (and the original suggestion was specifically for the UK.) A similar system could be used anywhere.
zanny 13y ago
This sounds great. I do wonder though how the batch interviews would go - it is easier to dismiss people for subconscious (or conscious) racism and sexism when they are just a voice or a piece of paper, but I can see a lot of lawsuits coming out of the HR departments in companies with less than angelic hiring practices.
yaddayadda 13y ago
The first 3 digits of a SSN indicate where the child was born. While not as prejudicial an aspect, there are definitely some geographical biases among some groups.
- wizzard 13y ago
  Just a fun fact, this stopped being true as of June 25, 2011: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_number#Structure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_number#Structu... But since there probably aren't many two-year-olds applying for jobs nowadays the comment is still relevant.
  - yaddayadda 13y ago
    Not just a fun fact, but also an informative fact. Thank you for the update and chuckle!
- bbanyc 13y ago
  Only for younger people - SSNs have only been assigned at birth since the 1980s. My mother was born in West Virginia but her SSN has a Minnesota prefix, because that's where she lived when she got her first job. Someone who wasn't born a US citizen would only get assigned an SSN with their green card or work visa, and I'd imagine the prefix would indicate their first place of residence in the US. So the most you can get from a pre-2011 SSN is that someone lived in some particular state in some particular year, and that information is likely inferable from the resume anyway.
  - yaddayadda 13y ago
    I was born in the early 70's and mine was assigned at birth. In fact, when I was a teenager I ran into someone else born at the same hospital on the same day (at the time we met we were thousands of miles away living in a different city on the other side of the state, so not a high probability event). The first 6 digits of our SSNs were the same.
    - 13y ago
nimblegorilla 13y ago
Reducing discrimination seems like a good idea, but reducing everyone to semi-anonymous UIDs seems extremely dehumanizing.
jlgreco 13y ago
I guess that would put an end to linking your github account from your resume. Considering that doing that is an invaluable tool to people lacking "real" work experience, either recently or in general, I think that could end up hurting a lot of people.
- tehwalrus 13y ago
  There was never any plan to restrict anything else (although if your github URL is your name, like mine, I guess it would defeat the purpose.) The point was that people often put their name (like in the article) in a large font at the top - replacing this with a faceless number just reduces the initial "put the girls and people called 'Singh' in that pile over there" nonsense, at makes people actually read the CVs.

TeMPOraL 13y ago

It won't work everywhere; e.g. SSN equivalent in Poland has sex encoded as one of the digits (determined by whether it's even or odd).

WalterSear 13y ago
If the bias is subconcious, moving to this would still have an effect.
- nostrademons 13y ago
  People are remarkably good at picking up on subtle signals that correlate well with their existing biases. Instead of "It seems like a women" they'll subconsciously think "It seems like an even."
  - WalterSear 13y ago
    It wouldn't be perfect, but most of the effect would be removed.
larrys 13y ago
"SSN equivalent in Poland has sex encoded" That gets supplied when sending a resume?
- TeMPOraL 13y ago
  It's not. OP wrote about using SSN-like numbers instead of names, so I wanted to note the fact that those number can, and quite often do, encode additional information.
tehwalrus 13y ago
In general, it could be enforced as a random identifier generated with each electronic application; this just burdens employers with implementing an electronic applications system, which is too high a regulatory burden (and would make dropping off a CV in person impossible/illegal, which is stupid.) It could be a hash of the persons name, too, but then the public would have to learn what a hash was... NI number works well in the UK, because it's convenient (and the original suggestion was specifically for the UK.) A similar system could be used anywhere.

zanny 13y ago

This sounds great. I do wonder though how the batch interviews would go - it is easier to dismiss people for subconscious (or conscious) racism and sexism when they are just a voice or a piece of paper, but I can see a lot of lawsuits coming out of the HR departments in companies with less than angelic hiring practices.

yaddayadda 13y ago

The first 3 digits of a SSN indicate where the child was born. While not as prejudicial an aspect, there are definitely some geographical biases among some groups.

wizzard 13y ago
Just a fun fact, this stopped being true as of June 25, 2011: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_number#Structure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_number#Structu... But since there probably aren't many two-year-olds applying for jobs nowadays the comment is still relevant.
- yaddayadda 13y ago
  Not just a fun fact, but also an informative fact. Thank you for the update and chuckle!
bbanyc 13y ago
Only for younger people - SSNs have only been assigned at birth since the 1980s. My mother was born in West Virginia but her SSN has a Minnesota prefix, because that's where she lived when she got her first job. Someone who wasn't born a US citizen would only get assigned an SSN with their green card or work visa, and I'd imagine the prefix would indicate their first place of residence in the US. So the most you can get from a pre-2011 SSN is that someone lived in some particular state in some particular year, and that information is likely inferable from the resume anyway.
- yaddayadda 13y ago
  I was born in the early 70's and mine was assigned at birth. In fact, when I was a teenager I ran into someone else born at the same hospital on the same day (at the time we met we were thousands of miles away living in a different city on the other side of the state, so not a high probability event). The first 6 digits of our SSNs were the same.
  - 13y ago

nimblegorilla 13y ago

Reducing discrimination seems like a good idea, but reducing everyone to semi-anonymous UIDs seems extremely dehumanizing.

jlgreco 13y ago

I guess that would put an end to linking your github account from your resume. Considering that doing that is an invaluable tool to people lacking "real" work experience, either recently or in general, I think that could end up hurting a lot of people.

tehwalrus 13y ago
There was never any plan to restrict anything else (although if your github URL is your name, like mine, I guess it would defeat the purpose.) The point was that people often put their name (like in the article) in a large font at the top - replacing this with a faceless number just reduces the initial "put the girls and people called 'Singh' in that pile over there" nonsense, at makes people actually read the CVs.