10 ms·

Interesting, enlightening, and thought-provoking article. To me, another interesting experiment would be changing the first name of the resume to something tha

Interesting, enlightening, and thought-provoking article. To me, another interesting experiment would be changing the first name of the resume to something that's nearly unambiguously male, say instead of Kim O'Grady to just Robert O'Grady, and seeing if that has the same effect. Another interesting experiment would be adding "Mrs." in front of the name Kim and seeing if that has the same effect. Personally speaking, I believe that technical people are sick and tired of the sausage fests at most technical companies and all other things being equal would go out of their way to hire more women.

dominotw 13y ago
True. I would assume women would have a better chance since most men are tired of being surrounded by other men all the time at work, like you said. What is the motivation for someone to be biased against women, seems counterintuitive.
- breadbox 13y ago
  It's not a conscious motivation. But if you go through life working with nothing but men, it becomes harder to visualize a woman doing your job, or doing it well. (Because otherwise where are they? Thus the term "status quo".)
- Amadou 13y ago
  Men can get away with making sexist jokes (or even not-jokes) around other men. You don't have to think so hard about how what you say might be perceived. Taking the overhead of that mental filter out of the loop lets men feel more at ease around each other. I'm not making a moral judgment, just describing what I've seen over the years as to one explanation of how men can have a subconscious bias that prefers hiring men.
  - bitops 13y ago
    > Men can get away with making sexist jokes (or even not-jokes) around other men. That's an important observation and plays a huge role in perpetuating sexism and gender discrimination. It continues to exist because guys let other guys get away with it. If you speak up and indicate that you're not okay with it, behaviors and attitudes may change. It's not easy and it requires courage. But it's necessary to really make a dent in the historical patterns.
    - sliverstorm 13y ago
      Maybe it isn't a problem that needs fixing? Maybe making work another place of constant judgement and time under the PC microscope would not be a net positive? Remember there's a difference between bare-faced misogyny and garden variety politically incorrectness.
      - bitops 13y ago
        I'm certainly not advocating that work should be a place of constant judgment. And I'm not fan of being under a constant behavioral microscope. I do find it important that work be a place where I feel respected and safe. Eliminating sexism and gender discrimination in the workplace is part of that effort.
      - dominotw 13y ago
        Nice observation. One of my colleague got a stern warning for using the word dick ( 'dont be a dick' kind of way) around female colleagues, because two women sitting behind him complained to management about it. I am sure he is not discriminatory, biased or misogynistic. I guess it wise to think about what you are saying and not say stuff like 'fuck off', 'stop bitching' which may be construed as inappropriate.
        sliverstorm 13y ago
        I can't claim it is my own observation. I got it from a feminist talking about how maybe the reason men are resisting women's ingress into male-dominated professions is because when women find the traditionally male workplace environment unsatisfactory, they expect the environment to change to suit them.
        omegaham 13y ago
        As a man in a pretty male-dominated profession, (Military) I can say that this is the case. It's exacerbated by blatant sexism, but the biggest rational fear is that women expect the environment to change when they arrive and that this change will be detrimental. The current culture and environment has been tried and proven to work, and they're fearful of a change in that culture impacting success. Having worked with women, I'm of the opinion that it really depends on leadership and the maturity of everyone in the shop. If you have scumbags around that are allowed to act unchecked, then a woman can destroy a shop in a matter of weeks. If you have good leadership that clearly outlines proper and improper behavior, then things usually come out ok.
  - prutschman 13y ago
    Cultural norms among men create pressure not to call out other men for misogynist and homophobic "humor." A man might be able to "get away with" making such remarks around other men, but it is very incorrect to infer that a lack of complaints means everyone around you is actually at ease.
- king_jester 13y ago
  > True. I would assume women would have a better chance since most men are tired of being surrounded by other men all the time at work, like you said. This may sound reasonable, but this is actually the opposite of what happens. In terms of hiring, people tend to leverage existing social networks and look for people that are similar to themselves. This generally puts a bias in favor of candidates who are not women, esp. when hiring for positions that are higher up in a company or business, as men generally outnumber women in higher level positions. > What is the motivation for someone to be biased against women, seems counterintuitive. Bias against women can take many forms and it may not be overt. Attitudes and basic opinions on women often form the basis for a actions that are micro aggressions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microaggression https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microaggression To that end, some people (men or women) may see women as not fit to do a task, not fit with a particular culture or set of workers, not able to interact with other depts. or businesses as a representative of a company, etc. Of course, there may be overt sexist discrimination as well.

dominotw 13y ago

True. I would assume women would have a better chance since most men are tired of being surrounded by other men all the time at work, like you said. What is the motivation for someone to be biased against women, seems counterintuitive.

breadbox 13y ago
It's not a conscious motivation. But if you go through life working with nothing but men, it becomes harder to visualize a woman doing your job, or doing it well. (Because otherwise where are they? Thus the term "status quo".)
Amadou 13y ago
Men can get away with making sexist jokes (or even not-jokes) around other men. You don't have to think so hard about how what you say might be perceived. Taking the overhead of that mental filter out of the loop lets men feel more at ease around each other. I'm not making a moral judgment, just describing what I've seen over the years as to one explanation of how men can have a subconscious bias that prefers hiring men.
- bitops 13y ago
  > Men can get away with making sexist jokes (or even not-jokes) around other men. That's an important observation and plays a huge role in perpetuating sexism and gender discrimination. It continues to exist because guys let other guys get away with it. If you speak up and indicate that you're not okay with it, behaviors and attitudes may change. It's not easy and it requires courage. But it's necessary to really make a dent in the historical patterns.
  - sliverstorm 13y ago
    Maybe it isn't a problem that needs fixing? Maybe making work another place of constant judgement and time under the PC microscope would not be a net positive? Remember there's a difference between bare-faced misogyny and garden variety politically incorrectness.
    - bitops 13y ago
      I'm certainly not advocating that work should be a place of constant judgment. And I'm not fan of being under a constant behavioral microscope. I do find it important that work be a place where I feel respected and safe. Eliminating sexism and gender discrimination in the workplace is part of that effort.
    - dominotw 13y ago
      Nice observation. One of my colleague got a stern warning for using the word dick ( 'dont be a dick' kind of way) around female colleagues, because two women sitting behind him complained to management about it. I am sure he is not discriminatory, biased or misogynistic. I guess it wise to think about what you are saying and not say stuff like 'fuck off', 'stop bitching' which may be construed as inappropriate.
      - sliverstorm 13y ago
        I can't claim it is my own observation. I got it from a feminist talking about how maybe the reason men are resisting women's ingress into male-dominated professions is because when women find the traditionally male workplace environment unsatisfactory, they expect the environment to change to suit them.
        omegaham 13y ago
        As a man in a pretty male-dominated profession, (Military) I can say that this is the case. It's exacerbated by blatant sexism, but the biggest rational fear is that women expect the environment to change when they arrive and that this change will be detrimental. The current culture and environment has been tried and proven to work, and they're fearful of a change in that culture impacting success. Having worked with women, I'm of the opinion that it really depends on leadership and the maturity of everyone in the shop. If you have scumbags around that are allowed to act unchecked, then a woman can destroy a shop in a matter of weeks. If you have good leadership that clearly outlines proper and improper behavior, then things usually come out ok.
- prutschman 13y ago
  Cultural norms among men create pressure not to call out other men for misogynist and homophobic "humor." A man might be able to "get away with" making such remarks around other men, but it is very incorrect to infer that a lack of complaints means everyone around you is actually at ease.
king_jester 13y ago
> True. I would assume women would have a better chance since most men are tired of being surrounded by other men all the time at work, like you said. This may sound reasonable, but this is actually the opposite of what happens. In terms of hiring, people tend to leverage existing social networks and look for people that are similar to themselves. This generally puts a bias in favor of candidates who are not women, esp. when hiring for positions that are higher up in a company or business, as men generally outnumber women in higher level positions. > What is the motivation for someone to be biased against women, seems counterintuitive. Bias against women can take many forms and it may not be overt. Attitudes and basic opinions on women often form the basis for a actions that are micro aggressions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microaggression https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microaggression To that end, some people (men or women) may see women as not fit to do a task, not fit with a particular culture or set of workers, not able to interact with other depts. or businesses as a representative of a company, etc. Of course, there may be overt sexist discrimination as well.