5 ms·

I thought the general advice is to call yourself a software engineer.

by nawitus 13y ago

Glyptodon 13y ago
I hate the trend of calling people who code 'engineers.' It's just not a good title for anything to do with software. And invariably people who embrace its usage seem to be trying to compensate or ignorant of what a real engineer actually does or is.
- deadfall 13y ago
  I think engineer is a reference to "builder of" or "maker of". There are plenty of other things to hate.
- gibrown 13y ago
  Unless your definition of 'engineer' is someone who drives a train, I don't see how 'engineering' doesn't apply to coding. At least good coding. I was an electrical engineer before being a software engineer. There is a difference in what level of the stack I focus on now, but there is very little difference in how I design solutions and think through problems (though hopefully I've continued to get better). Most of my electrical engineering also involved coding day in and day out.
  - btilly 13y ago
    Here is an explanation that I read in a book of Steve McConnell's a decade ago. Certain types of tasks (eg building a bridge) require an engineer to sign off on the work. And the engineer is personally liable should the design of the bridge prove faulty. An engineer is a person whose license allows them to make those representations and have it be accepted. Most software developers lack that license, and cannot legally sign off on designs. And as an industry we don't value software development's expertise as a final say on what does or does not fly. The consequence is chronic security problems, nonfunctional software, privacy specifications, etc, etc, etc. As a society, we are not OK with bridges falling down. But apparently we are OK with having software projects routinely overrun budgets by 100+% and still fail to deliver required functionality. Steve McConnell makes the case in http://www.amazon.com/Professional-Software-Development-Schedules-Successful/dp/0321193679/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1373686659&sr=1-5 http://www.amazon.com/Professional-Software-Development-Sche... that if a true software engineering profession was recognized - not just software developers being called software developers but actual engineering certifications in the field of software development - we could begin fixing this. I don't think it will happen, nor am I totally supportive of that approach - but he makes a case worth reading.
    - nialo 13y ago
      Just one note on this, as someone with a "Mechanical Engineer" job title: The majority of people (including me personally, all my coworkers, my parents, etc.) working with "engineer" in their title, and presumably calling themselves engineers, don't have the Professional Engineer license required to sign off on bridge designs. I personally don't see any problem with Software Engineer as a title, although I'm occasionally sad that just "Engineer" is so often taken to mean software only in some places.
- jjsz 13y ago
  The trend extends to other words. Sometimes I hear Programmers calling themselves Computer Scientists or Computer Engineers [1] [2] [3] when in different cases they are a Developers or a Hacker. Which they get wrong too. You are what you are. of you're acting another role you should state that you're playing that role not that you are. Ex. Computer Scientist, who can fill the role of a Programmer. This discussion keeps popping up [4] [5] , but the definitions are clear. I believe there's a Wikipedia article somewhere that explains all the differences. [1] In Puerto Rico [2] http://www.eng.buffalo.edu/undergrad/academics/degrees/cs-vs-cen http://www.eng.buffalo.edu/undergrad/academics/degrees/cs-vs... [3] http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineer http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineer [4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5936652 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5936652 [5] http://blog.hartleybrody.com/hacker-developer-engineer/ http://blog.hartleybrody.com/hacker-developer-engineer/
  - chc 13y ago
    What's the difference between a computer scientist filling the role of programmer and somebody who is both a computer scientist and a programmer? If you can fill the role of X competently, why can you not rightly be said to be an X?
    - jjsz 13y ago
      You're X AND Y. Not just Y. Just like someone here on HN who worked on their double bachelors of Math AND Physics while there was a minor called Math-Physics. S(he) worked hard for that and.
      - deleted 13y ago
        [deleted]
  - walshemj 13y ago
    It was explained to me (at a world leading RnD organization) And engineer is a scientist with thumbs - though some times they have to ask the technicians to remind them how ohms law goes :-) When I worked at a top 5 Civil engineering consultancy I corrected one of the engineers math one particular bridge in Saudi
- nawitus 13y ago
  Are you also critical of calling 'electrical designers' engineers? The degree I'm studying for is an engineering degree.
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    How many classes did you take with other engineering students that other STEM majors (say, chemists) did not also take? My CS program was "in" the engineering school but after freshman year the required curriculums diverged greatly. Sure, we both took Physics III and whatnot, but so did all of the other decidedly not engineer STEM students. Even the required/suggested math classes diverged after Calc II (with engineers skipping Calc III and taking IV instead, and most CS students taking III but not IV. We didn't even take the same ethics courses. CS took computer ethics while other engineers took engineering ethics.
- nilkn 13y ago
  What exactly is an engineer then? A lot of my friends are desk engineers at chemical companies. Not a single one is putting anything together at all with their hands, and most aren't figuring out how other people will put stuff together with their hands either. It's an almost entirely intellectual endeavor. In fact, at some places like Exxon, some chemical engineers are also internally known as economic analysts because they're mostly just trying to find ways to optimize revenue flow. If this qualifies as an engineer, why in the world does software development not, especially if what you're doing involves maintaing a server/database cluster or overseeing development practices?
  - zachrose 13y ago
    Putting things together with your hands is what mechanics do.
    - nilkn 13y ago
      Cool, so what is an engineer?
- vinceguidry 13y ago
  One of my first bosses in IT used to do steel work on large buildings. He was classically trained as an engineer. He didn't have any trouble calling computer work engineering. Considered the disciplines very similar as far as skills used. But he did have a lot to say about the legions of keyboard monkeys who couldn't find their way out of a vi instance. Just because most people who work on computers aren't engineers doesn't make the field not engineering. Just means that most of the people that do it are incompetent at their jobs.
a-priori 13y ago
Not in Canada. It's illegal here to call yourself an 'engineer' unless you're a licensed engineer. It's a protected term, like 'doctor'. So unless you studied Software Engineering, which there are many schools that teach it, and hold a P.Eng, then you can't use the term.
- jleader 13y ago
  That's technically true in many US states as well, but I've never heard of it being enforced outside of the fields where many practitioners are licensed (mostly Civil Engineering, to a much lesser extent Electrical and Mechanical Engineering).
  - wry 13y ago
    My previous internship title was Software Engineer but my title was changed to "Software Designer" because someone is enforcing it.
  - bryanlarsen 13y ago
    It's enough of an issue in Canada that Microsoft stopped calling their peons "Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer", instead using "Microsoft Certified IT Professional". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_and_licensure_in_engineering#Canada_2 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_and_licensure_in_eng...
  - _delirium 13y ago
    In practice, I don't believe any U.S. states attempt to regulate the mere linguistic usage of the word "engineer", the way that Canada does. Pretty much anyone can call themselves an engineer, or have the word "engineer" in their job title. What's regulated is that there are certain situations, mainly in civil engineering, in which a required document can only be signed off on by someone with a state engineering license.
- tempestn 13y ago
  Technically you can also call yourself an engineer in Canada if you're an EIT (registered Engineer In Training), and you're working under the supervision of a P.Eng (Professional Engineer). ISTM that the primary benefit of the P.Eng system is that 'Engineers' are required to uphold a precise ethical standard; passing the ethics exam is probably the most significant hurdle in getting a P.Eng after actually finishing your degree. That said, it's also about the only hurdle aside from gaining 4 years of work experience in the field. (In theory you need to show improving technical skills, continuous learning, etc., etc., but in practice it's somewhat of a rubber stamp. (And coincidentally, at the end, you can get a rubber stamp.))

I thought the general advice is to call yourself a software engineer.

by nawitus 13y ago

I thought the general advice is to call yourself a software engineer.

I hate the trend of calling people who code 'engineers.' It's just not a good title for anything to do with software. And invariably people who embrace its usage seem to be trying to compensate or ignorant of what a real engineer actually does or is.

deadfall 13y ago
I think engineer is a reference to "builder of" or "maker of". There are plenty of other things to hate.
gibrown 13y ago
Unless your definition of 'engineer' is someone who drives a train, I don't see how 'engineering' doesn't apply to coding. At least good coding. I was an electrical engineer before being a software engineer. There is a difference in what level of the stack I focus on now, but there is very little difference in how I design solutions and think through problems (though hopefully I've continued to get better). Most of my electrical engineering also involved coding day in and day out.
- btilly 13y ago
  Here is an explanation that I read in a book of Steve McConnell's a decade ago. Certain types of tasks (eg building a bridge) require an engineer to sign off on the work. And the engineer is personally liable should the design of the bridge prove faulty. An engineer is a person whose license allows them to make those representations and have it be accepted. Most software developers lack that license, and cannot legally sign off on designs. And as an industry we don't value software development's expertise as a final say on what does or does not fly. The consequence is chronic security problems, nonfunctional software, privacy specifications, etc, etc, etc. As a society, we are not OK with bridges falling down. But apparently we are OK with having software projects routinely overrun budgets by 100+% and still fail to deliver required functionality. Steve McConnell makes the case in http://www.amazon.com/Professional-Software-Development-Schedules-Successful/dp/0321193679/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1373686659&sr=1-5 http://www.amazon.com/Professional-Software-Development-Sche... that if a true software engineering profession was recognized - not just software developers being called software developers but actual engineering certifications in the field of software development - we could begin fixing this. I don't think it will happen, nor am I totally supportive of that approach - but he makes a case worth reading.
  - nialo 13y ago
    Just one note on this, as someone with a "Mechanical Engineer" job title: The majority of people (including me personally, all my coworkers, my parents, etc.) working with "engineer" in their title, and presumably calling themselves engineers, don't have the Professional Engineer license required to sign off on bridge designs. I personally don't see any problem with Software Engineer as a title, although I'm occasionally sad that just "Engineer" is so often taken to mean software only in some places.
jjsz 13y ago
The trend extends to other words. Sometimes I hear Programmers calling themselves Computer Scientists or Computer Engineers [1] [2] [3] when in different cases they are a Developers or a Hacker. Which they get wrong too. You are what you are. of you're acting another role you should state that you're playing that role not that you are. Ex. Computer Scientist, who can fill the role of a Programmer. This discussion keeps popping up [4] [5] , but the definitions are clear. I believe there's a Wikipedia article somewhere that explains all the differences. [1] In Puerto Rico [2] http://www.eng.buffalo.edu/undergrad/academics/degrees/cs-vs-cen http://www.eng.buffalo.edu/undergrad/academics/degrees/cs-vs... [3] http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineer http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineer [4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5936652 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5936652 [5] http://blog.hartleybrody.com/hacker-developer-engineer/ http://blog.hartleybrody.com/hacker-developer-engineer/
- chc 13y ago
  What's the difference between a computer scientist filling the role of programmer and somebody who is both a computer scientist and a programmer? If you can fill the role of X competently, why can you not rightly be said to be an X?
  - jjsz 13y ago
    You're X AND Y. Not just Y. Just like someone here on HN who worked on their double bachelors of Math AND Physics while there was a minor called Math-Physics. S(he) worked hard for that and.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
- walshemj 13y ago
  It was explained to me (at a world leading RnD organization) And engineer is a scientist with thumbs - though some times they have to ask the technicians to remind them how ohms law goes :-) When I worked at a top 5 Civil engineering consultancy I corrected one of the engineers math one particular bridge in Saudi
nawitus 13y ago
Are you also critical of calling 'electrical designers' engineers? The degree I'm studying for is an engineering degree.
- jlgreco 13y ago
  How many classes did you take with other engineering students that other STEM majors (say, chemists) did not also take? My CS program was "in" the engineering school but after freshman year the required curriculums diverged greatly. Sure, we both took Physics III and whatnot, but so did all of the other decidedly not engineer STEM students. Even the required/suggested math classes diverged after Calc II (with engineers skipping Calc III and taking IV instead, and most CS students taking III but not IV. We didn't even take the same ethics courses. CS took computer ethics while other engineers took engineering ethics.
nilkn 13y ago
What exactly is an engineer then? A lot of my friends are desk engineers at chemical companies. Not a single one is putting anything together at all with their hands, and most aren't figuring out how other people will put stuff together with their hands either. It's an almost entirely intellectual endeavor. In fact, at some places like Exxon, some chemical engineers are also internally known as economic analysts because they're mostly just trying to find ways to optimize revenue flow. If this qualifies as an engineer, why in the world does software development not, especially if what you're doing involves maintaing a server/database cluster or overseeing development practices?
- zachrose 13y ago
  Putting things together with your hands is what mechanics do.
  - nilkn 13y ago
    Cool, so what is an engineer?
vinceguidry 13y ago
One of my first bosses in IT used to do steel work on large buildings. He was classically trained as an engineer. He didn't have any trouble calling computer work engineering. Considered the disciplines very similar as far as skills used. But he did have a lot to say about the legions of keyboard monkeys who couldn't find their way out of a vi instance. Just because most people who work on computers aren't engineers doesn't make the field not engineering. Just means that most of the people that do it are incompetent at their jobs.

a-priori 13y ago

Not in Canada. It's illegal here to call yourself an 'engineer' unless you're a licensed engineer. It's a protected term, like 'doctor'. So unless you studied Software Engineering, which there are many schools that teach it, and hold a P.Eng, then you can't use the term.

jleader 13y ago
That's technically true in many US states as well, but I've never heard of it being enforced outside of the fields where many practitioners are licensed (mostly Civil Engineering, to a much lesser extent Electrical and Mechanical Engineering).
- wry 13y ago
  My previous internship title was Software Engineer but my title was changed to "Software Designer" because someone is enforcing it.
- bryanlarsen 13y ago
  It's enough of an issue in Canada that Microsoft stopped calling their peons "Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer", instead using "Microsoft Certified IT Professional". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_and_licensure_in_engineering#Canada_2 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_and_licensure_in_eng...
- _delirium 13y ago
  In practice, I don't believe any U.S. states attempt to regulate the mere linguistic usage of the word "engineer", the way that Canada does. Pretty much anyone can call themselves an engineer, or have the word "engineer" in their job title. What's regulated is that there are certain situations, mainly in civil engineering, in which a required document can only be signed off on by someone with a state engineering license.
tempestn 13y ago
Technically you can also call yourself an engineer in Canada if you're an EIT (registered Engineer In Training), and you're working under the supervision of a P.Eng (Professional Engineer). ISTM that the primary benefit of the P.Eng system is that 'Engineers' are required to uphold a precise ethical standard; passing the ethics exam is probably the most significant hurdle in getting a P.Eng after actually finishing your degree. That said, it's also about the only hurdle aside from gaining 4 years of work experience in the field. (In theory you need to show improving technical skills, continuous learning, etc., etc., but in practice it's somewhat of a rubber stamp. (And coincidentally, at the end, you can get a rubber stamp.))