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His crusade from the beginning has been anti-surveillance in the US. Nobody doubts that Russia and China are doing the same---it's simply what's expected (unfor

His crusade from the beginning has been anti-surveillance in the US. Nobody doubts that Russia and China are doing the same---it's simply what's expected (unfortunately). From the beginning, his stated goal was simply to end this practice in America. As for his first statement, I simply don't read too much into it. My only take-away was "thanks for not turning me over". He's an expert on how the NSA is conducting surveillance---not on which countries are authorities on human rights.

tome 13y ago
> From the beginning, his stated goal was simply to end this practice in America. I don't think this was true, otherwise I would feel unconditional support for him. He has released leaks about US spying on external targets and aims to flee to countries which have very poor relationships with the US. This muddies the waters considerably. Personally I think it weakens his message, and this disappoints me.
- fatjokes 13y ago
  > He has released leaks about US spying on external targets and aims to flee to countries which have very poor relationships with the US I see what you mean, but I guess this is a personal opinion. I personally think it has had a positive net effect. Specifically, prior to this, hawks in the US were beating war drums after the news about Chinese cyberattacks. I feel they've gone silent lately. America has also always sat on the morality high-horse. I love this country, but it's still always fun to see the big guy get taken down a peg.
  - D9u 13y ago
    Here's an article dealing with the irony of the USA complaining about other nation's cyber shenanigans: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/11/world/asia/differences-on-cybertheft-complicate-china-talks.html http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/11/world/asia/differences-on-... I submitted the article here but it's buried in the morass of other submissions.
- llamataboot 13y ago
  So you would rather have him flee to countries that would extradite him to the US so he can be tortured in solitary like Manning?
  - grumpygremlin 13y ago
    Stop applying the ter 'toture' to every corrrctional policy you disagree with.
  - mpyne 13y ago
    I would rather he come home so that he can undergo the normal civilian legal process he claims to want involved in the law enforcement activities the U.S. government seeks to undertake. Just like Thomas Drake, that other NSA whistleblower, who didn't flee and didn't get 'tortured in solitary'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Andrews_Drake http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Andrews_Drake
    - logn 13y ago
      I don't want that. I want him to continue leaking this information. From all accounts, this is the tip of the iceberg we've heard so far. Snowden might have no intention of telling us about the extent of everything, but I at least want to hear everything unfold. The US court systems are not a place to get justice and enlighten the public. They're a place to pay huge legal fees to hopefully not end up dead or in a cell, especially in a case such as Sowdens'. One of his main goals for leaking all this is that the public had no idea of our laws because they were created in secret courts. He's supposed to now trust lady justice to reveal the truth?
      - mpyne 13y ago
        > I want him to continue leaking this information. Hasn't he repeatedly said that it's already all leaked? His friends on the outside would be able to hold the threat of that against the U.S. government, especially if he were mistreated in prison. > One of his main goals for leaking all this is that the public had no idea of our laws because they were created in secret courts. The public may have no idea of the laws, but it's not because they come from secret courts. The law itself has given the executive the power being used here. Metadata collection itself is legal (for decades), and so is collection of foreign surveillance (again, for decades). The only difference now is that the extra controls added to the modern equivalents of ECHELON, Carnivore, etc. have convinced the FISC that they comply with the public law where previous versions did not, but the FISC did not create any law by themselves. I think you far overestimate the give-a-shit of the public at large to things like this. The public is accustomed from years of wiretaps, pen registers, cell phone tower searches, TV shows, subpoenas, and the fact that the NSA and CIA have existed for and been doing stuff like this for decades into assuming that there is some way for government investigators to get their hands on exactly this kind of data. Just look at the arraignment for Aaron Hernandez. Why should people be shocked that the government can get your Facebook likes given what they were able to find about the murder of Lloyd within only a week. At this point Snowden is only hurting his cause by making the story about himself and not about how the government has surveillance ability that is different in scale, if not actually in kind. The longer he drifts in with organizations that the public you're referring to feel are threats and enemies, the less likely it is that the same public will trust the message he's trying to convey.
- jivatmanx 13y ago
  Only two countries directly: Germany, which clearly has a superior human rights record than the U.S, and Brazil, which can certainly be argued to have a better record. Edit: Perhaps "Ranking", or current policy is a better phrase than "Record", but in any case, the Nazis were a very long time ago, there aren't even that many WWII veterans alive anymore, much-less in power.
  - reeses 13y ago
    "Germany, which clearly has a superior human rights record than the U.S" I think I just pissed my pants. Pardon my rudeness, but West Germany was forced to improve their human rights record by imposition from the Allied countries. East Germany continued to have a crap HR record. Only in the recent record does Germany have a solid HR stance.
    - marshray 13y ago
      Keep in mind that most people under the age of 38 or so won't remember pre-unification Germany at all.
      - reeses 13y ago
        Getting older often involves forgetting to update the age at which people would not have experienced things directly. Of course, it makes sense when those people are 15-18, but...jeez. Thanks for the reminder. Humbling. :-)
  - Nrsolis 13y ago
    Germany's human rights record is decidedly mixed. (Source: my mother)
  - D9u 13y ago
    Have you been to Brazil lately? I've met people who survived Auschwitz.
malandrew 13y ago
His crusade from the beginning has been anti-surveillance in the US. Yup. What a lot of people in the US Government forget is that a lot of other countries look to us for guidance for what is and is not acceptable. Now every country in the world that was previously criticized for building a surveillance state can now point at the US and say "Why does it matter what I'm doing, they are already doing it and doing so on a much greater scale". Is that really the legacy this country wants to have?

tome 13y ago

> From the beginning, his stated goal was simply to end this practice in America. I don't think this was true, otherwise I would feel unconditional support for him. He has released leaks about US spying on external targets and aims to flee to countries which have very poor relationships with the US. This muddies the waters considerably. Personally I think it weakens his message, and this disappoints me.

fatjokes 13y ago
> He has released leaks about US spying on external targets and aims to flee to countries which have very poor relationships with the US I see what you mean, but I guess this is a personal opinion. I personally think it has had a positive net effect. Specifically, prior to this, hawks in the US were beating war drums after the news about Chinese cyberattacks. I feel they've gone silent lately. America has also always sat on the morality high-horse. I love this country, but it's still always fun to see the big guy get taken down a peg.
- D9u 13y ago
  Here's an article dealing with the irony of the USA complaining about other nation's cyber shenanigans: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/11/world/asia/differences-on-cybertheft-complicate-china-talks.html http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/11/world/asia/differences-on-... I submitted the article here but it's buried in the morass of other submissions.
llamataboot 13y ago
So you would rather have him flee to countries that would extradite him to the US so he can be tortured in solitary like Manning?
- grumpygremlin 13y ago
  Stop applying the ter 'toture' to every corrrctional policy you disagree with.
- mpyne 13y ago
  I would rather he come home so that he can undergo the normal civilian legal process he claims to want involved in the law enforcement activities the U.S. government seeks to undertake. Just like Thomas Drake, that other NSA whistleblower, who didn't flee and didn't get 'tortured in solitary'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Andrews_Drake http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Andrews_Drake
  - logn 13y ago
    I don't want that. I want him to continue leaking this information. From all accounts, this is the tip of the iceberg we've heard so far. Snowden might have no intention of telling us about the extent of everything, but I at least want to hear everything unfold. The US court systems are not a place to get justice and enlighten the public. They're a place to pay huge legal fees to hopefully not end up dead or in a cell, especially in a case such as Sowdens'. One of his main goals for leaking all this is that the public had no idea of our laws because they were created in secret courts. He's supposed to now trust lady justice to reveal the truth?
    - mpyne 13y ago
      > I want him to continue leaking this information. Hasn't he repeatedly said that it's already all leaked? His friends on the outside would be able to hold the threat of that against the U.S. government, especially if he were mistreated in prison. > One of his main goals for leaking all this is that the public had no idea of our laws because they were created in secret courts. The public may have no idea of the laws, but it's not because they come from secret courts. The law itself has given the executive the power being used here. Metadata collection itself is legal (for decades), and so is collection of foreign surveillance (again, for decades). The only difference now is that the extra controls added to the modern equivalents of ECHELON, Carnivore, etc. have convinced the FISC that they comply with the public law where previous versions did not, but the FISC did not create any law by themselves. I think you far overestimate the give-a-shit of the public at large to things like this. The public is accustomed from years of wiretaps, pen registers, cell phone tower searches, TV shows, subpoenas, and the fact that the NSA and CIA have existed for and been doing stuff like this for decades into assuming that there is some way for government investigators to get their hands on exactly this kind of data. Just look at the arraignment for Aaron Hernandez. Why should people be shocked that the government can get your Facebook likes given what they were able to find about the murder of Lloyd within only a week. At this point Snowden is only hurting his cause by making the story about himself and not about how the government has surveillance ability that is different in scale, if not actually in kind. The longer he drifts in with organizations that the public you're referring to feel are threats and enemies, the less likely it is that the same public will trust the message he's trying to convey.
jivatmanx 13y ago
Only two countries directly: Germany, which clearly has a superior human rights record than the U.S, and Brazil, which can certainly be argued to have a better record. Edit: Perhaps "Ranking", or current policy is a better phrase than "Record", but in any case, the Nazis were a very long time ago, there aren't even that many WWII veterans alive anymore, much-less in power.
- reeses 13y ago
  "Germany, which clearly has a superior human rights record than the U.S" I think I just pissed my pants. Pardon my rudeness, but West Germany was forced to improve their human rights record by imposition from the Allied countries. East Germany continued to have a crap HR record. Only in the recent record does Germany have a solid HR stance.
  - marshray 13y ago
    Keep in mind that most people under the age of 38 or so won't remember pre-unification Germany at all.
    - reeses 13y ago
      Getting older often involves forgetting to update the age at which people would not have experienced things directly. Of course, it makes sense when those people are 15-18, but...jeez. Thanks for the reminder. Humbling. :-)
- Nrsolis 13y ago
  Germany's human rights record is decidedly mixed. (Source: my mother)
- D9u 13y ago
  Have you been to Brazil lately? I've met people who survived Auschwitz.

malandrew 13y ago

His crusade from the beginning has been anti-surveillance in the US. Yup. What a lot of people in the US Government forget is that a lot of other countries look to us for guidance for what is and is not acceptable. Now every country in the world that was previously criticized for building a surveillance state can now point at the US and say "Why does it matter what I'm doing, they are already doing it and doing so on a much greater scale". Is that really the legacy this country wants to have?