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Does anyone realistically think this program will be rolled back? Presuming for a moment that all the information collected by NSA is, in fact, public informat

Does anyone realistically think this program will be rolled back? Presuming for a moment that all the information collected by NSA is, in fact, public information, it seems to me that the primary problem isn't collection but asymmetric access and hence power differential between the state and those governed. Why should the government have exclusive access to this information while the general public doesn't? If this treasure trove of personal connection graphs, cell phone discussions, location information, is all truly public and not subject to a judge issued targeted warrant, then, why shouldn't this public information be available to any member of the public? This new information could be a boon for Democracy and completely change how we understand and interact with Government. Why shouldn't technology impact how we organize our society? Politicians and civil servants, who have the consent of the governed, take an oath to uphold the constitution and put the interest of the people above their own. If the general public should be tracked to such precision, at the very least, why shouldn't interactions in the public affairs of our elected and appointed and contracted officials, done on our behalf, be subject to the same level of scrutiny?

hga 13y ago
As to rolling them back, there is precedent: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Committee http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Committee Otherwise the wag who penned Government Builds Free Cloud-Based Backup for an Ungrateful Nation (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6012941 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6012941) sort of addresses your other points.
- nodata 13y ago
  s/president/precedent/;
- area51org 13y ago
  I think there's a fair chance we could actually roll this back, given enough pressure and attention. The question is how to know that the NSA/CIA is really not monitoring us. Answer: citizen groups watching the watchers. That's right: we monitor the NSA and the CIA, and if blocked, immediate court action. I'm not saying this will really happen. But I don't think it's impossible, and I think many of us would agree that it's warranted.
  - jfoutz 13y ago
    Well, they could roll it back, or they could get better at keeping secrets.
    - gtaylor 13y ago
      Until they get caught again, potentially facing an even bigger crapstorm.
    - area51org 13y ago
      Yeah, that's why the citizen oversight. We can't trust the government to police itself, obviously.
  - flyinRyan 13y ago
    We could know by shutting them down and making the concept of secret courts illegal.
pvnick 13y ago
>Does anyone realistically think this program will be rolled back? I for one plan on making a ton of noise until that happens.
- disposition2 13y ago
  We've been making noise since 2001 before the Patriot Act was passed, then in 2007 when they granted retroactive immunity to the telecoms who where assisting with the illegal wiretapping, and now again in 2013 when we received some PPT slides that confirm what we thought in 2001. I'm not trying to be a negative nancy, nor saying stop making noise, just that it's been going on for 12+ years (if not longer) and the powers that could stop it can hardly tie their shoes without an argument on how to tie them correctly. Hopefully more people will wise up to the blatant disregard for the law and demand further action.
  - gtaylor 13y ago
    Disclaimer: This is not directed at disposition in particular, it's more of a general observation. > I'm not trying to be a negative nancy, nor saying stop making noise, just that it's been going on for 12+ years (if not longer) and the powers that could stop it can hardly tie their shoes without an argument on how to tie them correctly. The length of time that something has gone on does not change the fact that it is fundamentally wrong. The only difference is that I am now, 12+ years later, more disgruntled than I was back when it started. I feel like some people use the fact that this has been ongoing as some way to say "Oh, this isn't as big a deal as you're making it out to be." No, screw you. Also, we as a population have to stop with the "it's never going to change, why bother?" mentality and get involved. It's definitely never going to change if we continue to be so apathetic as a group.
    - willurd 13y ago
      > No, screw you. This is how I feel every time I hear someone make excuses for things like this. It's less "screw you, I hate you" and more "screw you, wake the hell up".
  - 13y ago
smoorman1024 13y ago
>Why shouldn't technology impact how we organize our society? Politicians and civil servants, who have the consent of the governed, take an oath to uphold the constitution and put the interest of the people above their own. I just read oath as oauth. I guess I've been conditioned to expect oauth as a more likely word than oath on Hacker News.
7952 13y ago
Such an approach would also lead to better security. GSM used to be sent un-encrypted, but because anyone could intercept it the security was improved. Compare that to the level of security typical on DSL. A simple starting point would be to put GPS trackers on every government owned car.
willurd 13y ago
> Presuming for a moment that all the information collected by NSA is, in fact, public information You mean like our phone calls, text messages, emails, and encrypted communications? Yeah, I'm sure we all intended for those to be "public information". > If the general public should be tracked to such precision No concessions will be made. This is so unconstitutional (and just plain wrong) it's sickening. I'm sure you're a smart/nice/well-meaning person, but I'm sick of people sticking up for the government. All it takes is a little bit of research and thinking about what's going on objectively to see that those running the government do not have our best interest at heart.
coldtea 13y ago
>Presuming for a moment that all the information collected by NSA is, in fact, public information That's a huge, and wrong, presumption.
coldtea 13y ago
>If this treasure trove of personal connection graphs, cell phone discussions, location information, is all truly public and not subject to a judge issued targeted warrant, then, why shouldn't this public information be available to any member of the public? Because I don't want anybody to fucking know I'm having an extra-marital affair. How the fuck is that your or anybody else's business?

hga 13y ago

As to rolling them back, there is precedent: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Committee http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Committee Otherwise the wag who penned Government Builds Free Cloud-Based Backup for an Ungrateful Nation (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6012941 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6012941) sort of addresses your other points.

nodata 13y ago
s/president/precedent/;
area51org 13y ago
I think there's a fair chance we could actually roll this back, given enough pressure and attention. The question is how to know that the NSA/CIA is really not monitoring us. Answer: citizen groups watching the watchers. That's right: we monitor the NSA and the CIA, and if blocked, immediate court action. I'm not saying this will really happen. But I don't think it's impossible, and I think many of us would agree that it's warranted.
- jfoutz 13y ago
  Well, they could roll it back, or they could get better at keeping secrets.
  - gtaylor 13y ago
    Until they get caught again, potentially facing an even bigger crapstorm.
  - area51org 13y ago
    Yeah, that's why the citizen oversight. We can't trust the government to police itself, obviously.
- flyinRyan 13y ago
  We could know by shutting them down and making the concept of secret courts illegal.

pvnick 13y ago

>Does anyone realistically think this program will be rolled back? I for one plan on making a ton of noise until that happens.

disposition2 13y ago
We've been making noise since 2001 before the Patriot Act was passed, then in 2007 when they granted retroactive immunity to the telecoms who where assisting with the illegal wiretapping, and now again in 2013 when we received some PPT slides that confirm what we thought in 2001. I'm not trying to be a negative nancy, nor saying stop making noise, just that it's been going on for 12+ years (if not longer) and the powers that could stop it can hardly tie their shoes without an argument on how to tie them correctly. Hopefully more people will wise up to the blatant disregard for the law and demand further action.
- gtaylor 13y ago
  Disclaimer: This is not directed at disposition in particular, it's more of a general observation. > I'm not trying to be a negative nancy, nor saying stop making noise, just that it's been going on for 12+ years (if not longer) and the powers that could stop it can hardly tie their shoes without an argument on how to tie them correctly. The length of time that something has gone on does not change the fact that it is fundamentally wrong. The only difference is that I am now, 12+ years later, more disgruntled than I was back when it started. I feel like some people use the fact that this has been ongoing as some way to say "Oh, this isn't as big a deal as you're making it out to be." No, screw you. Also, we as a population have to stop with the "it's never going to change, why bother?" mentality and get involved. It's definitely never going to change if we continue to be so apathetic as a group.
  - willurd 13y ago
    > No, screw you. This is how I feel every time I hear someone make excuses for things like this. It's less "screw you, I hate you" and more "screw you, wake the hell up".
- 13y ago

smoorman1024 13y ago

>Why shouldn't technology impact how we organize our society? Politicians and civil servants, who have the consent of the governed, take an oath to uphold the constitution and put the interest of the people above their own. I just read oath as oauth. I guess I've been conditioned to expect oauth as a more likely word than oath on Hacker News.

7952 13y ago

Such an approach would also lead to better security. GSM used to be sent un-encrypted, but because anyone could intercept it the security was improved. Compare that to the level of security typical on DSL. A simple starting point would be to put GPS trackers on every government owned car.

willurd 13y ago

> Presuming for a moment that all the information collected by NSA is, in fact, public information You mean like our phone calls, text messages, emails, and encrypted communications? Yeah, I'm sure we all intended for those to be "public information". > If the general public should be tracked to such precision No concessions will be made. This is so unconstitutional (and just plain wrong) it's sickening. I'm sure you're a smart/nice/well-meaning person, but I'm sick of people sticking up for the government. All it takes is a little bit of research and thinking about what's going on objectively to see that those running the government do not have our best interest at heart.

coldtea 13y ago

>Presuming for a moment that all the information collected by NSA is, in fact, public information That's a huge, and wrong, presumption.

coldtea 13y ago

>If this treasure trove of personal connection graphs, cell phone discussions, location information, is all truly public and not subject to a judge issued targeted warrant, then, why shouldn't this public information be available to any member of the public? Because I don't want anybody to fucking know I'm having an extra-marital affair. How the fuck is that your or anybody else's business?