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Could it be, that secret ballots are insecure? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_ballot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_ballot In the US, we officially

Could it be, that secret ballots are insecure? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_ballot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_ballot In the US, we officially supported secret ballots in 1892. Still, I wonder if we all found the strength to open up the ballot, if that wouldn't eliminate some of the viability of voting fraud? I'll start, I voted for Obama in 2008 & 2012.

zanny 13y ago
A lot of people are in circumstances where those they can't escape from (parents, abusive boyfriends, etc) will physically assult you for voting for the guy they didn't like. In the more general case, you can lose friends not going with the collective choice, and open ballots expose that, which makes more people vote for the guy their friends want rather than what they want to maintain social acceptance.
- ChrisAntaki 13y ago
  Those are extreme cases! I hope your family isn't beating you often, for your voting habits.
  - omh 13y ago
    There's plenty of other cases as well. What about someone who bribes people to vote for them, and can check up on it? Or if your boss tells you who to vote for and threatens to fire you otherwise?
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
    - ChrisAntaki 13y ago
      These are examples of Voting Fraud. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vote_selling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vote_selling Secret ballots make it easier to pull off.
      - Fargren 13y ago
        Secret ballots make it easier to pull off. How so?
        ChrisAntaki 13y ago
        In 2000, there was a voting scandal regarding the presidential election in the USA. It involved allegations of votes being paid for, to secure a victory for Bush in Florida, among other states. An open ballot could have prevented this.
        Fargren 13y ago
        But the discussion was about vote selling. I don't see how open ballots make that harder. The opposite seems to be true.
        ChrisAntaki 13y ago
        @Fargren: I would argue votes are easier to sell, with a secret ballot. The seller would be whoever is counting the votes. There could be a huge monetary gain for that one counter (Diebold for instance), as opposed to relatively small amounts for individual voters. That being said, buying votes directly is illegal. If ballots were open, and someone bought votes, there would now be a paper trail.
        eli 13y ago
        So by "votes being paid for" you mean the conspiracy theory that Diebold machines altered vote totals?
  - xyzzy123 13y ago
    Security which is only effective in the absence of an "attacker" isn't security. This is why we engineer for the worst case. As an aside: as a failure mode, I'd rather see vote selling than punishment or torture.
josephlord 13y ago
Yes everything about voting gets simpler if you throw away the anonymity aspect. The election can be better audited[1] and you can be too if you voted for the wrong party. You would also probably get to discover the market price of votes in marginal constituencies. [1] Audited, fired from a government job, beaten, not to mention social, religious or family pressures to vote in a particular way. The reality or fear of these things could influence elections if not so much in the West but if these standards were adopted where elections are a little more life threatening (I'm thinking of Kenya but there are probably many other examples too).
- davidw 13y ago
  In Italy, there's a strict ban on phones or cameras in the voting booths because, like you say, it's a way to verify that you voted for who you did, and consequently, get paid for it.
arnarbi 13y ago
Secrecy of votes is the foundation of the system. Just imagine how many people would be willing to sell their vote if they could prove it to a third party.
- ChrisAntaki 13y ago
  Vote selling is a form of Voting Fraud. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vote_selling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vote_selling Secret ballots make it even easier to pull off.
  - mapmeld 13y ago
    For many years in the US, it was easy to do vote-selling because each political party gave their voters a color-coded, one-party ballot. The secret ballot makes vote selling unreliable, because it's impossible to prove whether someone has voted as promised.
  - eli 13y ago
    Huh? Selling your vote is extremely difficult with a closed ballot and extremely easy with an open ballot. Do you mean that the vote selling is offset by ending other forms of voting fraud? Other forms of voting fraud are incredibly rare.
    - ChrisAntaki 13y ago
      In the Gore vs. Bush election, there were potentially a lot of votes sold.
hnal943 13y ago
Obama is already using the IRS to harass his political opponents. I don't want that to get easier for either party.

zanny 13y ago

A lot of people are in circumstances where those they can't escape from (parents, abusive boyfriends, etc) will physically assult you for voting for the guy they didn't like. In the more general case, you can lose friends not going with the collective choice, and open ballots expose that, which makes more people vote for the guy their friends want rather than what they want to maintain social acceptance.

ChrisAntaki 13y ago
Those are extreme cases! I hope your family isn't beating you often, for your voting habits.
- omh 13y ago
  There's plenty of other cases as well. What about someone who bribes people to vote for them, and can check up on it? Or if your boss tells you who to vote for and threatens to fire you otherwise?
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - ChrisAntaki 13y ago
    These are examples of Voting Fraud. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vote_selling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vote_selling Secret ballots make it easier to pull off.
    - Fargren 13y ago
      Secret ballots make it easier to pull off. How so?
      - ChrisAntaki 13y ago
        In 2000, there was a voting scandal regarding the presidential election in the USA. It involved allegations of votes being paid for, to secure a victory for Bush in Florida, among other states. An open ballot could have prevented this.
        Fargren 13y ago
        But the discussion was about vote selling. I don't see how open ballots make that harder. The opposite seems to be true.
        ChrisAntaki 13y ago
        @Fargren: I would argue votes are easier to sell, with a secret ballot. The seller would be whoever is counting the votes. There could be a huge monetary gain for that one counter (Diebold for instance), as opposed to relatively small amounts for individual voters. That being said, buying votes directly is illegal. If ballots were open, and someone bought votes, there would now be a paper trail.
        eli 13y ago
        So by "votes being paid for" you mean the conspiracy theory that Diebold machines altered vote totals?
- xyzzy123 13y ago
  Security which is only effective in the absence of an "attacker" isn't security. This is why we engineer for the worst case. As an aside: as a failure mode, I'd rather see vote selling than punishment or torture.

josephlord 13y ago

Yes everything about voting gets simpler if you throw away the anonymity aspect. The election can be better audited[1] and you can be too if you voted for the wrong party. You would also probably get to discover the market price of votes in marginal constituencies. [1] Audited, fired from a government job, beaten, not to mention social, religious or family pressures to vote in a particular way. The reality or fear of these things could influence elections if not so much in the West but if these standards were adopted where elections are a little more life threatening (I'm thinking of Kenya but there are probably many other examples too).

davidw 13y ago
In Italy, there's a strict ban on phones or cameras in the voting booths because, like you say, it's a way to verify that you voted for who you did, and consequently, get paid for it.

arnarbi 13y ago

Secrecy of votes is the foundation of the system. Just imagine how many people would be willing to sell their vote if they could prove it to a third party.

ChrisAntaki 13y ago
Vote selling is a form of Voting Fraud. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vote_selling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vote_selling Secret ballots make it even easier to pull off.
- mapmeld 13y ago
  For many years in the US, it was easy to do vote-selling because each political party gave their voters a color-coded, one-party ballot. The secret ballot makes vote selling unreliable, because it's impossible to prove whether someone has voted as promised.
- eli 13y ago
  Huh? Selling your vote is extremely difficult with a closed ballot and extremely easy with an open ballot. Do you mean that the vote selling is offset by ending other forms of voting fraud? Other forms of voting fraud are incredibly rare.
  - ChrisAntaki 13y ago
    In the Gore vs. Bush election, there were potentially a lot of votes sold.

hnal943 13y ago

Obama is already using the IRS to harass his political opponents. I don't want that to get easier for either party.