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My major problem with the PRISM debacle was less that the NSA stores and analyzes Internet traffic (although it's perfectly reasonable to be upset about it) and

My major problem with the PRISM debacle was less that the NSA stores and analyzes Internet traffic (although it's perfectly reasonable to be upset about it) and more that they were doing it secretively (mixed with some disgust at how much money, energy, and time must be wasted storing and sifting through unfathomable amounts of data). With that in mind, it's kind of counterintuitive to close the door to conversation when silence was the issue in the first place. It almost seems like a melodramatic romance ("I just need to be alone right now."), which portrays the DEF CON organizers as reactionary and immature. I also think it creates unnecessary hostility when you disinvite a group of people that everyone seems to know will attend anyway. In fact, it just creates more secrecy.

drivingmenuts 13y ago
Ordinary citizens talking to the NSA isn't going to stop them, it's more likely to get those same concerned citizens put on any number of watchlists. At the moment, I have some serious doubt that even Congress can stop the NSA and am quite sure they're not going to bother, aside from making a little noise so it looks like they're defending The Constitution. What will put a stop to this is a Presidential Order, but that's not going to be forthcoming under any administration.
- chris_mahan 13y ago
  Congress can cut funding without asking anyone else for permission.
- wavesounds 13y ago
  Ugh this fear mixed with cynicism is so gross! Ordinary Citizens have always been the driving force behind every major change in this country. Talk to everyone you can about this and for Christ's sake try a little positivity!
  - aylons 13y ago
    > Ordinary Citizens have always been the driving force behind every major change in this country Sooo cute.
    - pizza 13y ago
      If you're going to rebut, don't be condescending about it. And offer information, too.
    - wavesounds 13y ago
      Yeah The Civil War, Women's Suffrage and The Civil Rights Movement were all "cute"
chris_mahan 13y ago
I think the NSA and friends are underestimating the amount of anger out there, and that the Congresscritters will probably try for a reduction of the NSA's budget to punish them for lying to them. The future of the organization might not be in jeopardy (although from the way congressmen seem peeved, it might) but there will definitely be cutbacks across the entire surveillance business.
- chris_mahan 13y ago
  See http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/lawmakers-say-administrations-lack-of-candor-on-surveillance-weakens-oversight/2013/07/10/8275d8c8-e97a-11e2-aa9f-c03a72e2d342_story.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/lawmakers-say-adminis... from the Washington Post. See the following paragraph on the page 1: "“The national security state has grown so that any administration is now not upfront with Congress,” said Rep. Jerrold Nadler (D-N.Y.), a senior member of the House Judiciary Committee. “It’s an imbalance that’s grown in our government, and one that we have to cleanse.”" as well as the last 5 paragraphs: (para 1) Clapper’s statement prompted some lawmakers to allege what Rep. Justin Amash (R-Mich.) called a “double standard” in which a top official could deliver false testimony without fear of penalty. (para 2) “If the administration has a policy to lie to Congress about classified materials in unclassified hearings, then you have to ask yourself what value the hearings have and whether or not anyone else is doing it,” said Rep. Mick Mulvaney (R-S.C.). (para 3) Some are calling for a major overhaul of the current oversight system, including the intelligence committees and the surveillance court, which were created in the late 1970s amid growing concern about U.S. spy practices following Watergate, the Vietnam War and revelations about CIA efforts to overthrow foreign governments. (para 4) Congress “tried to make agencies which have to operate in secret accountable nevertheless to the law,” said former vice president Walter F. Mondale, who as a senator was a member of the Church Committee, which led the efforts to overhaul the system. (para 5) Now, Mondale said, “that system has totally collapsed.” He said Clapper’s willingness to mislead the public during Senate testimony “is what happens when there’s no accountability. . . . What is the consequence of fibbing to the American people?” This seems to indicate to me that some congressmen are indeed interested in changing things around.
- a3n 13y ago

drivingmenuts 13y ago

Ordinary citizens talking to the NSA isn't going to stop them, it's more likely to get those same concerned citizens put on any number of watchlists. At the moment, I have some serious doubt that even Congress can stop the NSA and am quite sure they're not going to bother, aside from making a little noise so it looks like they're defending The Constitution. What will put a stop to this is a Presidential Order, but that's not going to be forthcoming under any administration.

chris_mahan 13y ago
Congress can cut funding without asking anyone else for permission.
wavesounds 13y ago
Ugh this fear mixed with cynicism is so gross! Ordinary Citizens have always been the driving force behind every major change in this country. Talk to everyone you can about this and for Christ's sake try a little positivity!
- aylons 13y ago
  > Ordinary Citizens have always been the driving force behind every major change in this country Sooo cute.
  - pizza 13y ago
    If you're going to rebut, don't be condescending about it. And offer information, too.
  - wavesounds 13y ago
    Yeah The Civil War, Women's Suffrage and The Civil Rights Movement were all "cute"

chris_mahan 13y ago

I think the NSA and friends are underestimating the amount of anger out there, and that the Congresscritters will probably try for a reduction of the NSA's budget to punish them for lying to them. The future of the organization might not be in jeopardy (although from the way congressmen seem peeved, it might) but there will definitely be cutbacks across the entire surveillance business.

chris_mahan 13y ago
See http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/lawmakers-say-administrations-lack-of-candor-on-surveillance-weakens-oversight/2013/07/10/8275d8c8-e97a-11e2-aa9f-c03a72e2d342_story.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/lawmakers-say-adminis... from the Washington Post. See the following paragraph on the page 1: "“The national security state has grown so that any administration is now not upfront with Congress,” said Rep. Jerrold Nadler (D-N.Y.), a senior member of the House Judiciary Committee. “It’s an imbalance that’s grown in our government, and one that we have to cleanse.”" as well as the last 5 paragraphs: (para 1) Clapper’s statement prompted some lawmakers to allege what Rep. Justin Amash (R-Mich.) called a “double standard” in which a top official could deliver false testimony without fear of penalty. (para 2) “If the administration has a policy to lie to Congress about classified materials in unclassified hearings, then you have to ask yourself what value the hearings have and whether or not anyone else is doing it,” said Rep. Mick Mulvaney (R-S.C.). (para 3) Some are calling for a major overhaul of the current oversight system, including the intelligence committees and the surveillance court, which were created in the late 1970s amid growing concern about U.S. spy practices following Watergate, the Vietnam War and revelations about CIA efforts to overthrow foreign governments. (para 4) Congress “tried to make agencies which have to operate in secret accountable nevertheless to the law,” said former vice president Walter F. Mondale, who as a senator was a member of the Church Committee, which led the efforts to overhaul the system. (para 5) Now, Mondale said, “that system has totally collapsed.” He said Clapper’s willingness to mislead the public during Senate testimony “is what happens when there’s no accountability. . . . What is the consequence of fibbing to the American people?” This seems to indicate to me that some congressmen are indeed interested in changing things around.
a3n 13y ago