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The peculiar part for me with Google is that they seem to be somehow immune from all the revelations. People keep stand by it and get annoyed when reminded of t

by znowi 13y ago

The peculiar part for me with Google is that they seem to be somehow immune from all the revelations. People keep stand by it and get annoyed when reminded of their wrong-doings. I suspect at this point, they're not much different than Microsoft. But the "don't be evil" brand is still strong in the mind of many.

antoko 13y ago
Speaking for myself, but I'm sure others share the sentiments, its not that i think google is somehow "good". They're obviously not, the difference is that they're still a cool tech company doing cool things on a massive scale (or potentially very disruptive). self-driving cars, balloon network testing in NZ, google fiber, and more mundane things like Golang and angular. I don't give them a pass, its just that in the bad column they're the same as all the other actors in this drama, on the good column they're a damn cool tech company that can realistically change the world in fundamental and positive ways. EDIT: also for the most part their interests are selfishly aligned with ours. They want a fast easy open internet. That contrasts pretty sharply with FB/MS/APPLE - who are more about hardware/walled gardens. Though all these lines seem to getting blurred.
- jcarney 13y ago
  Google isn't above doing things that harm people to make them more money. Like the steadily decreasing background contrast and lack of borders separating ads from search results. Older people are far less cognizant of borders and thus would click on ads thinking they're search results. http://blumenthals.com/blog/2012/01/31/is-google-intentionally-trying-to-minimize-the-fact-that-these-are-ads/ http://blumenthals.com/blog/2012/01/31/is-google-intentional... They recently got rapped by the FTC for it. http://wallstcheatsheet.com/stocks/ftc-googles-ad-practice-is-deceptive.html/?a=viewall http://wallstcheatsheet.com/stocks/ftc-googles-ad-practice-i... The difference is that the negative Microsoft news tends to float on top of sites like HN more than positive news, and the reverse is true for Google so this alters perceptions of people.
  - magicalist 13y ago
    Actually, the "they" that got "rapped" by the FTC were "AOL, Ask, Bing, Blekko, Duck Duck Go, Google and Yahoo as general purpose search engines and 17 'of the most heavily trafficked' shopping, travel and local search engines"[1]. These were reissued rules that clarified and enhanced the rules issued by the FTC in 2002 to make advertising clear. It likely came out of Danny Sullivan's letter to the FTC[2] showing how the competitors accusing Google Shopping of not disclosing paid inclusion well enough had no intention of themselves following the FTC's rules. > The difference is that the negative Microsoft news tends to float on top of sites like HN more than positive news, and the reverse is true for Google so this alters perceptions of people. You clearly visit a different HN than I do. While there is plenty of positive Google news here, the negative news in the top 10 is almost daily (Reader, account closing, PRISM, etc). Considering your account is 6 hours old (with 196 karma!), maybe stick around for a while before making pseudo-hypotheses about story dynamics? [1] http://searchengineland.com/ftc-search-engine-disclosure-164722 http://searchengineland.com/ftc-search-engine-disclosure-164... [2] http://searchengineland.com/a-letter-to-the-ftc-regarding-search-engine-disclosure-124169 http://searchengineland.com/a-letter-to-the-ftc-regarding-se...
    - Steko 13y ago
      "maybe stick around for a while before making pseudo-hypotheses about story dynamics?" Ok I've been around for awhile and can vouch that what he's claiming happens regularly. Some links from the last time I bothered to comment on it can be found in the following: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5731329 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5731329
      - jlgreco 13y ago
        And, as last time this topic was brought up, I feel obliged to point out that HN rank is more than a function of votes, flags, comment total, and time. The quality of the comments, likely determined by the speed and voting patterns, is also used. This, or a similar system, is also reputed to be used to hide the "reply" link during suspected flamewars. So sure, you could blame some perceived Google bias on Google shills flagging Microsoft articles. You could also blame some perceived Anti-Microsoft bias on Microsoft shills being abrasive and causing comment sections to become toxic (for example, by filling the comment sections with comments complaining about HN rank compared to Google articles). I see little to no evidence for either, I am not in a position to inspect the complete data to determine what is causing any perceived phenomenon (nor are you, I suspect).
sentenza 13y ago
I might be just a single data point, but PRISM is the primary cause of my slow but persistent move away from Google services. Oh, btw, I know many people over here in Europe who never use any Google service other than search out of general mistrust towards the company. Might not help them much, as the search history combined with the IP-address logs of all the G+ buttons is already a pretty encompassing profile, but nonetheless they exist and constitute a non-negligible fraction of the populace over here.
- bigiain 13y ago
  Not just G+ buttons either. How many websites these days _arent_ running Google Analytics?
  - gtirloni 13y ago
    For me, all of them. Thanks to Ghostery.
    - eps 13y ago
      Ghostery is just another form of an analytics platform. I hope you realize that.
skriticos2 13y ago
They still realease a lot of Open Source software, support open source projects (Google summer of code) and publish somewhat sensible standards like SPDY. The last time Microsoft published a standard it used lobby power to push it through ISO fast track. It's horribly bloated and it was quite obvious that they only wanted to avoid to seem unsustanable as data format provider. If Google turns evil, we have a big mess, but in the end we have also won much. Microsoft does not have much to show except for market opression and closed down products. They are still very, very far away from each other.
nikster 13y ago
What surprises me is that for example Apple and Google don't simply ignore the gag orders, and just release what and how much they have handed over. Google/Apple are not going to get shut down over this. They can afford lawsuits and penalties. So why not take a stand? Are they really that timid? Or is what they would reveal actually so grim they just sit by and hope they're somehow going to escape this? This is the time to put cost/benefit analysis aside and take a stand. Show the world what kind of company you are. So far, its all whimps and pushovers.
- DanBC 13y ago
  It's easy to suggest that someone else should go to prison.
- mercer 13y ago
  While I would not bet money on it, it might be possible that the NSA has dirt on these companies, or on their high-ranking employees, keeping them from taking a stand.

by znowi 13y ago

antoko 13y ago

Speaking for myself, but I'm sure others share the sentiments, its not that i think google is somehow "good". They're obviously not, the difference is that they're still a cool tech company doing cool things on a massive scale (or potentially very disruptive). self-driving cars, balloon network testing in NZ, google fiber, and more mundane things like Golang and angular. I don't give them a pass, its just that in the bad column they're the same as all the other actors in this drama, on the good column they're a damn cool tech company that can realistically change the world in fundamental and positive ways. EDIT: also for the most part their interests are selfishly aligned with ours. They want a fast easy open internet. That contrasts pretty sharply with FB/MS/APPLE - who are more about hardware/walled gardens. Though all these lines seem to getting blurred.

jcarney 13y ago
Google isn't above doing things that harm people to make them more money. Like the steadily decreasing background contrast and lack of borders separating ads from search results. Older people are far less cognizant of borders and thus would click on ads thinking they're search results. http://blumenthals.com/blog/2012/01/31/is-google-intentionally-trying-to-minimize-the-fact-that-these-are-ads/ http://blumenthals.com/blog/2012/01/31/is-google-intentional... They recently got rapped by the FTC for it. http://wallstcheatsheet.com/stocks/ftc-googles-ad-practice-is-deceptive.html/?a=viewall http://wallstcheatsheet.com/stocks/ftc-googles-ad-practice-i... The difference is that the negative Microsoft news tends to float on top of sites like HN more than positive news, and the reverse is true for Google so this alters perceptions of people.
- magicalist 13y ago
  Actually, the "they" that got "rapped" by the FTC were "AOL, Ask, Bing, Blekko, Duck Duck Go, Google and Yahoo as general purpose search engines and 17 'of the most heavily trafficked' shopping, travel and local search engines"[1]. These were reissued rules that clarified and enhanced the rules issued by the FTC in 2002 to make advertising clear. It likely came out of Danny Sullivan's letter to the FTC[2] showing how the competitors accusing Google Shopping of not disclosing paid inclusion well enough had no intention of themselves following the FTC's rules. > The difference is that the negative Microsoft news tends to float on top of sites like HN more than positive news, and the reverse is true for Google so this alters perceptions of people. You clearly visit a different HN than I do. While there is plenty of positive Google news here, the negative news in the top 10 is almost daily (Reader, account closing, PRISM, etc). Considering your account is 6 hours old (with 196 karma!), maybe stick around for a while before making pseudo-hypotheses about story dynamics? [1] http://searchengineland.com/ftc-search-engine-disclosure-164722 http://searchengineland.com/ftc-search-engine-disclosure-164... [2] http://searchengineland.com/a-letter-to-the-ftc-regarding-search-engine-disclosure-124169 http://searchengineland.com/a-letter-to-the-ftc-regarding-se...
  - Steko 13y ago
    "maybe stick around for a while before making pseudo-hypotheses about story dynamics?" Ok I've been around for awhile and can vouch that what he's claiming happens regularly. Some links from the last time I bothered to comment on it can be found in the following: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5731329 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5731329
    - jlgreco 13y ago
      And, as last time this topic was brought up, I feel obliged to point out that HN rank is more than a function of votes, flags, comment total, and time. The quality of the comments, likely determined by the speed and voting patterns, is also used. This, or a similar system, is also reputed to be used to hide the "reply" link during suspected flamewars. So sure, you could blame some perceived Google bias on Google shills flagging Microsoft articles. You could also blame some perceived Anti-Microsoft bias on Microsoft shills being abrasive and causing comment sections to become toxic (for example, by filling the comment sections with comments complaining about HN rank compared to Google articles). I see little to no evidence for either, I am not in a position to inspect the complete data to determine what is causing any perceived phenomenon (nor are you, I suspect).

sentenza 13y ago

I might be just a single data point, but PRISM is the primary cause of my slow but persistent move away from Google services. Oh, btw, I know many people over here in Europe who never use any Google service other than search out of general mistrust towards the company. Might not help them much, as the search history combined with the IP-address logs of all the G+ buttons is already a pretty encompassing profile, but nonetheless they exist and constitute a non-negligible fraction of the populace over here.

bigiain 13y ago
Not just G+ buttons either. How many websites these days _arent_ running Google Analytics?
- gtirloni 13y ago
  For me, all of them. Thanks to Ghostery.
  - eps 13y ago
    Ghostery is just another form of an analytics platform. I hope you realize that.

skriticos2 13y ago

They still realease a lot of Open Source software, support open source projects (Google summer of code) and publish somewhat sensible standards like SPDY. The last time Microsoft published a standard it used lobby power to push it through ISO fast track. It's horribly bloated and it was quite obvious that they only wanted to avoid to seem unsustanable as data format provider. If Google turns evil, we have a big mess, but in the end we have also won much. Microsoft does not have much to show except for market opression and closed down products. They are still very, very far away from each other.

nikster 13y ago

What surprises me is that for example Apple and Google don't simply ignore the gag orders, and just release what and how much they have handed over. Google/Apple are not going to get shut down over this. They can afford lawsuits and penalties. So why not take a stand? Are they really that timid? Or is what they would reveal actually so grim they just sit by and hope they're somehow going to escape this? This is the time to put cost/benefit analysis aside and take a stand. Show the world what kind of company you are. So far, its all whimps and pushovers.

DanBC 13y ago
It's easy to suggest that someone else should go to prison.
mercer 13y ago
While I would not bet money on it, it might be possible that the NSA has dirt on these companies, or on their high-ranking employees, keeping them from taking a stand.