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Unfortunately Dota is not so much skill based as it is trivia based -- you need to know many many many combinations of item progressions to match your hero's st

Unfortunately Dota is not so much skill based as it is trivia based -- you need to know many many many combinations of item progressions to match your hero's stats and abilities. The gameplay of Dota, creep denial or not, isn't that deep, but the sheer complexity of items and purchase order is overwhelming. So more about trivia, not so much skill. Classic FPS's in minstagib mode are generally very simple to play with a total of about 3/4 controls and are very much skill, not trivia based, and an anathema to console gamers and noobs. Skill is not about memorizing dictionaries of trivia. Anyway, key word is trivia.

ufo 13y ago
I wouldn't go as far as to say that the key word is trivia and tbh the things you mentioned (item and skill builds) are actually quite static and you can even just follow a guide if you want. I think you are putting too much emphasis on the reflex-based combat at the detriment of the more general "macromanagement" things like predicting the position of the opponents, managing resource aquisition, etc. I'd say that Dota is much more like an RTS without worker units and base building than it is an FPS where each round takes 30 minutes. Not to say that there isn't a fair share of unintuitive things. A good example is how even though the objective of the game is destroy the enemy base most of the times a team will avoid attacking the enemy buildings until the very end of the game.
KVFinn 13y ago
>but the sheer complexity of items and purchase order is overwhelming. There are built in user contributed guides that suggest what what to build and why, with the guide's author comments on both individual items and skills, for every hero and numerous alternative builds. There is in game voting on the quality of each guide. It's a cinch now in Dota 2 to buy basic stuff even if you've literally never played a hero before, and also easy to try experimental builds for fun right in game. The skill is all judgement calls and spacing. Memorizing item or skill progressions is irrelevant and indeed "trivial" in the sense that it plays little part in the game or your thinking during it. On the other hand, having the skill to use the blink dagger and catch opponents or save yourself is essential.
epsylon 13y ago
> Dota is not so much skill based as it is trivia based You're saying that because obviously you haven't progressed past the trivia plateau. There's a LOT of skill involved in DotA. You need a few hours of play to acquire the basic mechanics and principles of the game, but you need a lot more hours to become a good player - even if you already know your heroes and your builds. I've spent more than 1000 hours playing the original DotA (since 2004) and Heroes of Newerth, and I've seen a lot of mediocre players with a shitload of experience, as well as a lot of absolutely terrific players with only a few hours of play behind them. Memorizing the basic knowledge required to play the game doesn't make you instantaneously a good player.
xentronium 13y ago
For low level players, maybe. High level dota includes both strategical and tactical nuances that are not trivial. Map movement, ward placing, map control, when to push, when not to push, team composition, picking and counterpicking, laning, rune control, seeing when it's profitable to attack and when it's costly, positioning in team battles (!). Besides, there is a great portion of skill in laning. You can watch best players like dendi winning 9 times of 10 on the middle lane against other top players. It's a spectacular feat.
Keyneston 13y ago
Our office has a lot of Dota players so we regularly play five man dota. We range in skill from very noob to ex-pro. The difference in skill between the ex-pro, or even several of the just very talented players and the rest of us is immense. The trivia helps, knowing counter items and the like helps but at high level play all sorts of things become very important. For example positioning of your unit(s), to either miss a spell being cast or to physically block the person you are trying to kill makes the difference between a major win or complete loss of a fight. Or your ability to farm, last hitting creeps, stacking/jungling and maximizing your gold per second. So yes at low level Dota is all about the trivia. I'm a better player then a random new player because I know the characters, their abilities and the items. But at the end of the day despite putting in hundreds of hours I pale in comparison to a Excellent player because I don't have the reflexes, or the split second analytical mind. In addition, and most importantly, I've not put in the hours upon hours of purposeful practice that a pro dota player has. Dota is a skill based game.
deleted 13y ago
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ufo 13y ago

I wouldn't go as far as to say that the key word is trivia and tbh the things you mentioned (item and skill builds) are actually quite static and you can even just follow a guide if you want. I think you are putting too much emphasis on the reflex-based combat at the detriment of the more general "macromanagement" things like predicting the position of the opponents, managing resource aquisition, etc. I'd say that Dota is much more like an RTS without worker units and base building than it is an FPS where each round takes 30 minutes. Not to say that there isn't a fair share of unintuitive things. A good example is how even though the objective of the game is destroy the enemy base most of the times a team will avoid attacking the enemy buildings until the very end of the game.

KVFinn 13y ago

>but the sheer complexity of items and purchase order is overwhelming. There are built in user contributed guides that suggest what what to build and why, with the guide's author comments on both individual items and skills, for every hero and numerous alternative builds. There is in game voting on the quality of each guide. It's a cinch now in Dota 2 to buy basic stuff even if you've literally never played a hero before, and also easy to try experimental builds for fun right in game. The skill is all judgement calls and spacing. Memorizing item or skill progressions is irrelevant and indeed "trivial" in the sense that it plays little part in the game or your thinking during it. On the other hand, having the skill to use the blink dagger and catch opponents or save yourself is essential.

epsylon 13y ago

> Dota is not so much skill based as it is trivia based You're saying that because obviously you haven't progressed past the trivia plateau. There's a LOT of skill involved in DotA. You need a few hours of play to acquire the basic mechanics and principles of the game, but you need a lot more hours to become a good player - even if you already know your heroes and your builds. I've spent more than 1000 hours playing the original DotA (since 2004) and Heroes of Newerth, and I've seen a lot of mediocre players with a shitload of experience, as well as a lot of absolutely terrific players with only a few hours of play behind them. Memorizing the basic knowledge required to play the game doesn't make you instantaneously a good player.

xentronium 13y ago

For low level players, maybe. High level dota includes both strategical and tactical nuances that are not trivial. Map movement, ward placing, map control, when to push, when not to push, team composition, picking and counterpicking, laning, rune control, seeing when it's profitable to attack and when it's costly, positioning in team battles (!). Besides, there is a great portion of skill in laning. You can watch best players like dendi winning 9 times of 10 on the middle lane against other top players. It's a spectacular feat.

Keyneston 13y ago

Our office has a lot of Dota players so we regularly play five man dota. We range in skill from very noob to ex-pro. The difference in skill between the ex-pro, or even several of the just very talented players and the rest of us is immense. The trivia helps, knowing counter items and the like helps but at high level play all sorts of things become very important. For example positioning of your unit(s), to either miss a spell being cast or to physically block the person you are trying to kill makes the difference between a major win or complete loss of a fight. Or your ability to farm, last hitting creeps, stacking/jungling and maximizing your gold per second. So yes at low level Dota is all about the trivia. I'm a better player then a random new player because I know the characters, their abilities and the items. But at the end of the day despite putting in hundreds of hours I pale in comparison to a Excellent player because I don't have the reflexes, or the split second analytical mind. In addition, and most importantly, I've not put in the hours upon hours of purposeful practice that a pro dota player has. Dota is a skill based game.

deleted 13y ago

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