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I seriously doubt that immigration is driving Americans out of engineering/programming. Let's take a look at some basic numbers. The median household income in

by psranga 17y ago

I seriously doubt that immigration is driving Americans out of engineering/programming. Let's take a look at some basic numbers. The median household income in the US about $50k, men's medial income is 45K and women's is 35K. If you assume a two income family with median earners their income will be approx $80k. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_...) Salaries in the tech industry (even at very low positions) are much higher than this (i.e., than 50k, 45k, 35k). This is now when salaries are supposedly low due to immigration. I do see that Americans respond to economic incentives in other professions. During the real estate bubble a HUGE number of people passed the realtor exams and got into the real estate business. Programming/computer skills are the easiest skills to pick up (no need for expensive equipment). I'm actually very puzzled that there aren't more Americans in engineering/programming. I'm unconvinced that fear of immigration-induced salary decreases is the reason why Americans don't want to go into engineering.

geebee 17y ago
The part of your argument that leaves me unconvinced is your use of the median income as a benchmark. The article referenced (on yahoo) mentions the high percentage of foreign nationals who obtain PhD's and Master's degrees at US Universities. So you're comparing someone who was talented enough in high school to hit the ground running with Calculus at university. This student then sleeps very few hours struggling with advanced calculus, differential equations, stochastic processes, nonlinear optimization, compiler design, chemistry, and physics. He scores well enough on the GRE (and perhaps the subject test) to get into a PhD program, and makes it through 6 years + a dissertation. You compare that to the median. Seriously? Meanwhile, his fellow lawyers in training breeze through a Poly Sci major. It's tough to get into a top law school, but no harder than getting into a top engineering program (because you don't have to compete with foreign nationals to get into law school in the US on anything near the scale you do in engineering). 3 years of law school or 2 of an MBA program are no picnic, but virtually all students at these programs obtain their degress (which is hardly the case at PhD programs, I know this from personal experience at Berkeley). Salaries would have to be as high or higher than Law/MBA to convince Americans to do this. Instead, engineering salaries can lag way behind, because it's easy to get foreigners, especially from countries without much economic opportunity, to sign up for this as a way of gaining a path toward US residency and citizenship. While salaries might not be actively lowered, they almost certainly place a limit on wage growth. When this happens over decades (and wages aren't similarly controlled in other fields where Law and MBA students are hired), you'll start to see a huge wage differential. To me, this has clearly happened - and now Americans have no interest in signing up for such an intensely rigorous path with rewards that are, quite frankly, much lower than in other professions.
- psranga 17y ago
  Wrt median: Your points seem to support what I am saying. The median general salary is much lower than even the tech industry's supposed depressed wages. Then why aren't people scrambling to become engineers like they did to become realtors or at least encouraging their children to become engineers? I don't have the link handy, but NY Times had a great graphic with salaries of different professions. Lawyers are paid more than computer people, but the delta is not a multiple (iirc it was about 50% more). So it's not even clear to me that lawyers are paid significanty more (considering the criticality of their work). Also it's not clear to me why you bring in PhD and master's. Most engineers in tech don't have those degrees.
  - geebee 17y ago
    <The median general salary is much lower than even the tech industry's supposed depressed wages> My point is that it doesn't make sense to compare a skillset like engineering to the median. You'd need to compare it to the kind of salary someone capable of engineering would be able to earn in another field. Salaries for a field can be higher than the median and still be lower than they would be in the absence of an H1B program. <Then why aren't people scrambling to become engineers like they did to become realtors or at least encouraging their children to become engineers?> I didn't notice anyone scrambling to get their kids into the real estate business. But maybe the reason they don't encourage their kids into engineering is that they've seen that a similar or lesser effort in other fields would have a bigger payout? <Also it's not clear to me why you bring in PhD and master's. Most engineers in tech don't have those degrees.> I brought this up because it was used in the original article that promoted this thread. It is often used to justify the need for an H1B program.

by psranga 17y ago

geebee 17y ago

The part of your argument that leaves me unconvinced is your use of the median income as a benchmark. The article referenced (on yahoo) mentions the high percentage of foreign nationals who obtain PhD's and Master's degrees at US Universities. So you're comparing someone who was talented enough in high school to hit the ground running with Calculus at university. This student then sleeps very few hours struggling with advanced calculus, differential equations, stochastic processes, nonlinear optimization, compiler design, chemistry, and physics. He scores well enough on the GRE (and perhaps the subject test) to get into a PhD program, and makes it through 6 years + a dissertation. You compare that to the median. Seriously? Meanwhile, his fellow lawyers in training breeze through a Poly Sci major. It's tough to get into a top law school, but no harder than getting into a top engineering program (because you don't have to compete with foreign nationals to get into law school in the US on anything near the scale you do in engineering). 3 years of law school or 2 of an MBA program are no picnic, but virtually all students at these programs obtain their degress (which is hardly the case at PhD programs, I know this from personal experience at Berkeley). Salaries would have to be as high or higher than Law/MBA to convince Americans to do this. Instead, engineering salaries can lag way behind, because it's easy to get foreigners, especially from countries without much economic opportunity, to sign up for this as a way of gaining a path toward US residency and citizenship. While salaries might not be actively lowered, they almost certainly place a limit on wage growth. When this happens over decades (and wages aren't similarly controlled in other fields where Law and MBA students are hired), you'll start to see a huge wage differential. To me, this has clearly happened - and now Americans have no interest in signing up for such an intensely rigorous path with rewards that are, quite frankly, much lower than in other professions.

psranga 17y ago
Wrt median: Your points seem to support what I am saying. The median general salary is much lower than even the tech industry's supposed depressed wages. Then why aren't people scrambling to become engineers like they did to become realtors or at least encouraging their children to become engineers? I don't have the link handy, but NY Times had a great graphic with salaries of different professions. Lawyers are paid more than computer people, but the delta is not a multiple (iirc it was about 50% more). So it's not even clear to me that lawyers are paid significanty more (considering the criticality of their work). Also it's not clear to me why you bring in PhD and master's. Most engineers in tech don't have those degrees.
- geebee 17y ago
  <The median general salary is much lower than even the tech industry's supposed depressed wages> My point is that it doesn't make sense to compare a skillset like engineering to the median. You'd need to compare it to the kind of salary someone capable of engineering would be able to earn in another field. Salaries for a field can be higher than the median and still be lower than they would be in the absence of an H1B program. <Then why aren't people scrambling to become engineers like they did to become realtors or at least encouraging their children to become engineers?> I didn't notice anyone scrambling to get their kids into the real estate business. But maybe the reason they don't encourage their kids into engineering is that they've seen that a similar or lesser effort in other fields would have a bigger payout? <Also it's not clear to me why you bring in PhD and master's. Most engineers in tech don't have those degrees.> I brought this up because it was used in the original article that promoted this thread. It is often used to justify the need for an H1B program.