11 ms·

The Search Engine that Vows Not to Track You [video]

65 points by tmslnz 13y ago

jinushaun 13y ago
But the problem is that Google works so well because it tracks me! Search is local and contextual.
- Skalman 13y ago
  Not my searches. If I need something location sensitive, I have no problem adding the location in the query.
  - clicks 13y ago
    While I have myself made the decision to start using DDG and abandon Google for these very privacy issues, I will voice another devil's advocate argument that there's another big plus to personalization (and data tracking): If I search "go" or some equally generic keyword which has one technical meaning besides a host of other ones, Google will actually be pretty smart about giving me results that I'm after, thus saving me lots of time.
    - glesica 13y ago
      Searching for these sorts of things is the one thing I still use Google for. Even when I'm not logged in, Google still does a better job with somewhat ambiguous queries. That being said, it does a better job for me. When I search for "go" I'm looking for the programming language, not the game(s). Someone else might feel differently. As an aside, whenever a new search engine comes out, or there is an update to an existing one (Bing, mostly), the test I always use is to search for "python" with no other search terms. If the results are dominated by articles about the animal (as was the case with Cuil a few years back) then the search engine and its weighting choices probably isn't a good fit for me, personally.
      - clicks 13y ago
        Right, that's the point. Google will increasingly give you better results the more you use it because of data-tracking and search personalization.
        glesica 13y ago
        But I'm talking about using Google anonymously, incognito. Sure, they might guess who I am from my IP address or font list or something weirder, so who knows. But assuming they don't know who I am, or at least act like they don't know who I am, Google still works better for certain types of query. I think this has to do with the way the software itself is tuned, or perhaps what their other customers search for.
- wf 13y ago
  I know I'm probably an odd user out, but I find myself annoyed more often than not that Google tries to make every query I have return local results. I agree with Skalman that I can add a location if I want to search locally.
  - teaneedz 13y ago
    I feel about the same. I recently switched back over to DDG (and Firefox). I'm happier with their privacy conscience philosophy (even if turns out moot because of it's location) and will give it my search queries going forward. Ducking it works for me. A Googleopoly display of local results and products is not always beneficial for me. I agree that adding location in the query is easy enough.
- JoshTriplett 13y ago
  For "local", it seems quite feasible to add optional location personalization. For context, I find DDG's top-of-the-results-page "did you mean this foo or that foo" fairly reasonable most of the time.
- mtgx 13y ago
  I've always hated the personalization Google does, because I don't want local results.
- glesica 13y ago
  Literally the only "local" searches I do are on Google Maps, after I have navigated to the place I'm interested in. I have absolutely no use for a search engine that tries to cram local results down my throat. If I want local, I'll ask for local. Explicit is better than implicit.
  - zipfle 13y ago
    import this
- s3r3nity 13y ago
  Agreed -- I love the fact that it just works. However their social experiment with integrating Google+ and search has always been a lousy experience for me.
- nilkn 13y ago
  Every search engine suffers from a particular paradox which I will describe, but Google suffers from it twofold by virtue its contextualized searches. The paradox is simply this: it fundamentally cannot, for instance, offer a meaningful search on something like "cheap car insurance." It can only tell you who the best advertisers are. If the cheapest company has little to no advertising budget, you'll never find them on Google. Your best bet will be to find them through a secondary insurance search engine which, by virtue of its massive advertising budget, does show up on Google. I don't know if DuckDuckGo solves this problem. It probably doesn't because the problem is driven by keyword searches and only exacerbated rather than created by advertising-centric filtering. I'm not even sure it can be solved. It's something I'd like to see tackled, though.
- ta223 13y ago
  Don't worry, you can use DDG and still be tracked by Goolge! With content of some sort loaded from Google's servers on around 80% of all sites, this mostly happens without you doing anything. But if you're really concerned, just use Chrome and/or set your name servers to 8.8.8.8 and 8.8.4.4.
  - MikeCapone 13y ago
    Hmm, interesting point about the Google DNS servers. I'm not too familiar with DNS servers; anyone can give more details on how they could be used to track people? Does a DNS request contain enough information to allow for the kind of thing?
    - socillion 13y ago
      DNS is a service that resolves a domain name to a specific IP address that handles requests for that domain, and is transparently invoked when visiting websites and other services. See Google's FAQ: https://developers.google.com/speed/public-dns/faq#privacy https://developers.google.com/speed/public-dns/faq#privacy
      - Selfcommit 13y ago
        That's a very well written FAQ. Makes me feel much better about using their DNS.
    - Selfcommit 13y ago
      Just piecing together known data here but... My IP address requests a particular site form DNS, in theory that request could be recorded. Even if Google doesn't know that I'm at that IP (which they could have gotten from some other site I'm logged into (say Amazon)) they know that my particular ip address has requested certain sites. They can then serve ads to that IP based on context
      - medde 13y ago
        it is safe to assume that Google record IP information (among other things) from Google Adsense and Google Analytics... which you probably visit at least one site that use one or the other at least once a day..
- medde 13y ago
  personalized searches is the second thing that I hate most about Google search ... the first being not being able to use the "+" and "-" operators... thanks to Google+ (it happened at the same time)
yalogin 13y ago
As nice as the privacy aspect of DDG is, I cannot see it sustaining the traffic over a long period. The main issue here is Google did a lot of vertical integration which DDG did not do yet. The biggest feature lacking is directions. Searching for an address on Google automatically shows it on a map and you can immediately go to the map and get directions. The number of searches just to get information (like code search etc) should be less compared to searching for services and directions. They need to build these features in to sustain the interest and to get more regular users.
- imperialWicket 13y ago
  Searching for an address on ddg shows a map, it's just not a google map. It also has links to investigate the address at Bing, Google, and MapQuest. Also, you can use !gm ADDRESS directly, and it passes your data to google over ssl via DDG's server. I think a big issue for DDG is this type of exclusivity complaint. And while it's a valid concern for some use cases, I really don't see DDG telling you to stop using other search services - they actively promote it. I use DDG all the time, but I don't think twice about searching for "!gm ADDRESS" if I know i want to investigate an address via Google Maps. The benefit is that I can easily bounce to whatever service I know will respond to my query best. If the concern is that DDG should know what service to send me to automatically (Addresses go to google maps, for example), then I think it's just a disconnect with their goal, and probably you should stick with Google - it sounds like it works well for you and the privacy aspect of DDG just isn't compelling. And that's fine.
- tjoff 13y ago
  Searching for information should be less than searching for directions/services? Also, google maps and google are completely different things. I have no trouble going to google for maps and directions and search elsewhere...
  - herbig 13y ago
    But directions are searches. If I know what directions you're searching for, that's more than enough information to build a profile of you that includes everything from what you eat, to what hobbies you have, or whether you're having an affair. It's all the same thing. There's no point in going half / half on search engines if your goal is privacy.
happywolf 13y ago
I will take this speech with a fair share of reservations. Not discrediting his ambition, but I will let time to tell. For example, Google started with 'Do No Evil' and has (had?) decent ambitions. However as it grows and pressures start to grow from shareholders, internal war for turfs, etc, market economy is slowly but steadily gaining an upper hand. What I meant is: when a company grows to a certain size, it will slowly morph into something that cannot be changed easily. Look at MS, Zynga, Novell, IBM, HP, Intel, AMD, and so on and so forth.
brvs 13y ago
"We've seen that most of our users are connecting from American IP addresses... shit! Can we redo that?"

65 points by tmslnz 13y ago

jinushaun 13y ago

But the problem is that Google works so well because it tracks me! Search is local and contextual.

Skalman 13y ago
Not my searches. If I need something location sensitive, I have no problem adding the location in the query.
- clicks 13y ago
  While I have myself made the decision to start using DDG and abandon Google for these very privacy issues, I will voice another devil's advocate argument that there's another big plus to personalization (and data tracking): If I search "go" or some equally generic keyword which has one technical meaning besides a host of other ones, Google will actually be pretty smart about giving me results that I'm after, thus saving me lots of time.
  - glesica 13y ago
    Searching for these sorts of things is the one thing I still use Google for. Even when I'm not logged in, Google still does a better job with somewhat ambiguous queries. That being said, it does a better job for me. When I search for "go" I'm looking for the programming language, not the game(s). Someone else might feel differently. As an aside, whenever a new search engine comes out, or there is an update to an existing one (Bing, mostly), the test I always use is to search for "python" with no other search terms. If the results are dominated by articles about the animal (as was the case with Cuil a few years back) then the search engine and its weighting choices probably isn't a good fit for me, personally.
    - clicks 13y ago
      Right, that's the point. Google will increasingly give you better results the more you use it because of data-tracking and search personalization.
      - glesica 13y ago
        But I'm talking about using Google anonymously, incognito. Sure, they might guess who I am from my IP address or font list or something weirder, so who knows. But assuming they don't know who I am, or at least act like they don't know who I am, Google still works better for certain types of query. I think this has to do with the way the software itself is tuned, or perhaps what their other customers search for.
wf 13y ago
I know I'm probably an odd user out, but I find myself annoyed more often than not that Google tries to make every query I have return local results. I agree with Skalman that I can add a location if I want to search locally.
- teaneedz 13y ago
  I feel about the same. I recently switched back over to DDG (and Firefox). I'm happier with their privacy conscience philosophy (even if turns out moot because of it's location) and will give it my search queries going forward. Ducking it works for me. A Googleopoly display of local results and products is not always beneficial for me. I agree that adding location in the query is easy enough.
JoshTriplett 13y ago
For "local", it seems quite feasible to add optional location personalization. For context, I find DDG's top-of-the-results-page "did you mean this foo or that foo" fairly reasonable most of the time.
mtgx 13y ago
I've always hated the personalization Google does, because I don't want local results.
glesica 13y ago
Literally the only "local" searches I do are on Google Maps, after I have navigated to the place I'm interested in. I have absolutely no use for a search engine that tries to cram local results down my throat. If I want local, I'll ask for local. Explicit is better than implicit.
- zipfle 13y ago
  import this
s3r3nity 13y ago
Agreed -- I love the fact that it just works. However their social experiment with integrating Google+ and search has always been a lousy experience for me.
nilkn 13y ago
Every search engine suffers from a particular paradox which I will describe, but Google suffers from it twofold by virtue its contextualized searches. The paradox is simply this: it fundamentally cannot, for instance, offer a meaningful search on something like "cheap car insurance." It can only tell you who the best advertisers are. If the cheapest company has little to no advertising budget, you'll never find them on Google. Your best bet will be to find them through a secondary insurance search engine which, by virtue of its massive advertising budget, does show up on Google. I don't know if DuckDuckGo solves this problem. It probably doesn't because the problem is driven by keyword searches and only exacerbated rather than created by advertising-centric filtering. I'm not even sure it can be solved. It's something I'd like to see tackled, though.
ta223 13y ago
Don't worry, you can use DDG and still be tracked by Goolge! With content of some sort loaded from Google's servers on around 80% of all sites, this mostly happens without you doing anything. But if you're really concerned, just use Chrome and/or set your name servers to 8.8.8.8 and 8.8.4.4.
- MikeCapone 13y ago
  Hmm, interesting point about the Google DNS servers. I'm not too familiar with DNS servers; anyone can give more details on how they could be used to track people? Does a DNS request contain enough information to allow for the kind of thing?
  - socillion 13y ago
    DNS is a service that resolves a domain name to a specific IP address that handles requests for that domain, and is transparently invoked when visiting websites and other services. See Google's FAQ: https://developers.google.com/speed/public-dns/faq#privacy https://developers.google.com/speed/public-dns/faq#privacy
    - Selfcommit 13y ago
      That's a very well written FAQ. Makes me feel much better about using their DNS.
  - Selfcommit 13y ago
    Just piecing together known data here but... My IP address requests a particular site form DNS, in theory that request could be recorded. Even if Google doesn't know that I'm at that IP (which they could have gotten from some other site I'm logged into (say Amazon)) they know that my particular ip address has requested certain sites. They can then serve ads to that IP based on context
    - medde 13y ago
      it is safe to assume that Google record IP information (among other things) from Google Adsense and Google Analytics... which you probably visit at least one site that use one or the other at least once a day..
medde 13y ago
personalized searches is the second thing that I hate most about Google search ... the first being not being able to use the "+" and "-" operators... thanks to Google+ (it happened at the same time)

yalogin 13y ago

As nice as the privacy aspect of DDG is, I cannot see it sustaining the traffic over a long period. The main issue here is Google did a lot of vertical integration which DDG did not do yet. The biggest feature lacking is directions. Searching for an address on Google automatically shows it on a map and you can immediately go to the map and get directions. The number of searches just to get information (like code search etc) should be less compared to searching for services and directions. They need to build these features in to sustain the interest and to get more regular users.

imperialWicket 13y ago
Searching for an address on ddg shows a map, it's just not a google map. It also has links to investigate the address at Bing, Google, and MapQuest. Also, you can use !gm ADDRESS directly, and it passes your data to google over ssl via DDG's server. I think a big issue for DDG is this type of exclusivity complaint. And while it's a valid concern for some use cases, I really don't see DDG telling you to stop using other search services - they actively promote it. I use DDG all the time, but I don't think twice about searching for "!gm ADDRESS" if I know i want to investigate an address via Google Maps. The benefit is that I can easily bounce to whatever service I know will respond to my query best. If the concern is that DDG should know what service to send me to automatically (Addresses go to google maps, for example), then I think it's just a disconnect with their goal, and probably you should stick with Google - it sounds like it works well for you and the privacy aspect of DDG just isn't compelling. And that's fine.
tjoff 13y ago
Searching for information should be less than searching for directions/services? Also, google maps and google are completely different things. I have no trouble going to google for maps and directions and search elsewhere...
- herbig 13y ago
  But directions are searches. If I know what directions you're searching for, that's more than enough information to build a profile of you that includes everything from what you eat, to what hobbies you have, or whether you're having an affair. It's all the same thing. There's no point in going half / half on search engines if your goal is privacy.

happywolf 13y ago

I will take this speech with a fair share of reservations. Not discrediting his ambition, but I will let time to tell. For example, Google started with 'Do No Evil' and has (had?) decent ambitions. However as it grows and pressures start to grow from shareholders, internal war for turfs, etc, market economy is slowly but steadily gaining an upper hand. What I meant is: when a company grows to a certain size, it will slowly morph into something that cannot be changed easily. Look at MS, Zynga, Novell, IBM, HP, Intel, AMD, and so on and so forth.

brvs 13y ago

"We've seen that most of our users are connecting from American IP addresses... shit! Can we redo that?"