8 ms·

A refresher course in empathy

83 points by mh_ 13y ago

Ovid 13y ago
SVN is in that URL: http://37signals.com/svn/posts/3567-a-refresher-course-in-empathy http://37signals.com/svn/posts/3567-a-refresher-course-in-em... Does 37signals still use SVN and uses it to host their content directly?
- eitland 13y ago
  I think it is an abbreviation for signals versus noise (s/n) which used to be the title of their blog.
  - alexjeffrey 13y ago
    it's still called signal vs. noise, but they use the name as heavily any more. From the page header: You’re reading Signal vs. Noise, a publication about the web by 37signals since 1999.
rancor 13y ago
When I saw this was on the 37signals blog, I reflexively expected a post by DHH, and now my funny bone is disappointed. Snark aside, any trick you can use to place the humanity of the other person you're interacting with in the forefront is going to help you avoid snapping at them, which is generally a good thing. The world can always use a little less hostility.
ambiate 13y ago
Today you, tomorrow me. Just to add content: hardware, software, programming, protocols, networks, chips, cords, formats, and onward. We are in a profession that creates a certain amount of ego once we have overcome an obstacle. There is an endless amount of information with an endless growth rate regarding technology. We are all ignorant -- it is just to what degree and which niche! I still remember 15 years ago and having my feelings hurt on a daily basis on EFnet. It hardened me, but I also learned how to dish out tolerance.
- gcr 13y ago
  > Today you, tomorrow me. For context, ambiate is likely referring to http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/elal2/have_you_ever_picked_up_a_hitchhiker/c18z0z2 http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/elal2/have_you_ev...
mlwarren 13y ago
For a customer that just doesn't get it, I don't see why the dishwasher/vacuum cleaner analogy is bad as long as it's delivered nicely.
- nedwin 13y ago
  I think part of the reason it's bad is that the customer still won't get why you won't get them. It's also bad because the solution was actually pretty straight forward send them the support docs (or the support contact) for their website. At least then you're pointing them in the right direction.
- bcoates 13y ago
  I doubt the customer failed to understand that the customer support rep thought that the issue wasn't their fault; the customer was getting angry because they thought the rep was wrong. Analogies don't convince and are often seen as condescending or evasive: "I asked for help, and I get word games"
  - mlwarren 13y ago
    Ahh, see, I was under the impression that the customer was failing to understand. If they think the rep is wrong then that's a whole other problem. If that's the case then you're right, it does come off as condescending. I'm not sure of the best way to convince a customer (who is wrong) that is questioning the rep's expertise. Provide more data and explain differently, I guess.
mathattack 13y ago
Empathy to that level gets expensive! You have to really feel it to do it.
tomjen3 13y ago
What possible worth would we get from being empathetic with people who can't even understand the difference between ours and somebodyelse website? They are unlikely to become customers, and each support incident cost the company money. Yeah I am sure there is an emotional reason for it, but I am asking for a cold hearted logic reason.
- positivejam 13y ago
  >They are unlikely to become customers My reading of the original post was that she already was a customer but couldn't understand that her current problem wasn't actually with Basecamp. And I'm sure you know the stats about the difference in cost between acquiring new vs. retaining existing customers...
- KeliNorth 13y ago
  It's quite logical to practice one of the most important human communication skills at every opportunity possible. Practice makes perfect, and will hone the skill for use in situations where it will lead to direct benefits. If something isn't practiced, it can backfire when employed incorrectly. It also very much feels like it'd go against the point of being empathetic if the only time it's employed is in beneficial situations.
- bryans 13y ago
  A good, logical reason to be empathetic in all situations would be to help yourself. If you needlessly act negative toward another person, you will be more inclined to be negative about similar situations in the future. You are essentially training yourself to be negative which, I can assure you, bleeds into the rest of your life. It's important to recognize that even if you don't see value in being empathetic toward a particularly difficult individual, under different circumstances you are someone else's difficult individual. The paraphrased idiom "treat others as you want to be treated" has existed for thousands of years, for a lot of good reasons.
  - GhotiFish 13y ago
    That first argument is unlikely to convince someone coming from a cold hard logic standpoint. Coming from a cold hard logic standpoint, that person is going to act in their best interest/companies best interest in all cases (or so the theory goes). I understand where you're coming from, but "Be nice to everyone to train yourself to be nice" isn't the optimal path from the companies perspective. Though you're second argument is effective in a global community kind of context.
xb95 13y ago
Amusingly, this post made a lot more sense when I remembered that boxers are a type of dog. That said, it's a great post and something that is all too easy to forget when you work with people, who often get angry at you when things aren't going their way. It's really kind of unfortunate, too; most companies have trained people that anger really is the best way to get something. If you yell, you might get a manager, and eventually the company just wants to placate you so that you go away. Now, people just reach for anger...
nedwin 13y ago
Great post. Shared it with our support team and everyone appreciated it so thank you! Proud to say one of the guys came back with this: "she should have just written her the first time: here write [to] these guys instead" :)
davidw 13y ago
Speaking of customer support... I'd love to read some good information about how to successfully set it up in a somewhat organized fashion. Tricks, tips, do's and don'ts... as well as some advice on trying to make the proper tradeoffs. Anyone got good books or other resources they can recommend?
- mackesque 13y ago
  Check out http://supportops.co http://supportops.co - Chase and the folks there publish some good stuff.
- lesterbuck 13y ago
  A while ago, I listened to a Mixergy interview with the founder of HelpScout. They have a content marketing strategy, and produce a lot of quality free content on customer service issues. https://www.helpscout.net/resources/ https://www.helpscout.net/resources/
krmmalik 13y ago
I ran an outsourced IT helpdesk company for many years, as well as online products. We used to get clients like this all the time. Here's how my staff were trained to handle this situation - the support staff would have asked the lady the name of her site, and the background story. Then patiently gotten to the bottom of the issue. After that would then either submit a support ticket on her behalf, or would call the company and put her in touch with them. Clients like this are very costly, especially if your business model isn't equipped to deal well with this, but all that said, empathy is about feeling what the other person feels. She clearly wanted a fix, so go fix it.
- hobs 13y ago
  But you were billing someone for it, right? They don't really get to do that in this situation. (if you were)
zallarak 13y ago
This is a wonderful article - too often we get caught up in our bubble of expertise -- most people don't understand basic software/internet architecture. As the Woz said, it's our job as tech workers to make things as intuitive as possible.
hoodoof 13y ago
Goodness, the irony of 37 signals lecturing others about empathy. http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2008/02/douchebaggery.html http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2008/02/douchebaggery.html and from the above article: http://codinghorror.typepad.com/.a/6a0120a85dcdae970b0120a86db600970b-pi http://codinghorror.typepad.com/.a/6a0120a85dcdae970b0120a86...
nicknorena 13y ago
"From now on, in my mind: Every time there’s a challenging case, the customer owns at least two boxers." A great lesson in how to make empathy something that you know is useful and something that you practice.
drewcoo 13y ago
I kept wondering why they didn't just contact the other company's support for the customer and make sure she was in contact with them. That's the kind of service customers rave about.
Udo 13y ago
Empathy goes both ways. That customer clearly had none, and furthermore didn't believe the support person when they repeatedly tried to explain things to her. We tend to see things like, say, boxers on their website and we instantly feel a connection to a person where none may be warranted. To unilaterally make that connection with an abusive person is a recipe for unhappiness and disappointment. I feel reminded about my startup time, we had customers like this. "The website you built doesn't work." - "Why, what's wrong?" - "I don't know, but I can't get on the internet today. This is your fault. I want my money back." - "Sir, if your internet is down, that's nothing we can help you with. Also, I thought things were going pretty good with our project." - "If you can't help me, you're clearly incompetent. I'm going to sue you. You broke my emails, too." And so on. A few times we actually sent someone over there to help with (in this example) their faulty DSL connection. This never solves anything. There won't be any gratitude, and the customer will be reinforced in thinking it's your fault. In essence they're being rewarded for abusiveness and unwillingness to think, too. From now on, every time his connection breaks it will be your fault. And you can't bill that time either. Furthermore, while you're sending someone over on the basis of goodwill and empathy, that guy will badmouth you all over town. Of course, people have bad days, and there can be mitigating factors. But if someone is clearly not listening to a single word you say and is incapable of understanding facts, it's time to let that customer go. I can't say this emphatically enough: it's not worth it. Identifying personally with that person will only make you suffer even more - you have to keep in mind that they're certainly not making 1% of the effort you're expending on their problem.
- bherms 13y ago
  Granfaloonism, as per Vonnegut http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granfalloon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granfalloon edit: this is in re to the first paragraph on unnecessary connection
- OldSchool 13y ago
  As incredible as these customer interaction stories are, they are 100% true. Customer service is an area where having experience as a parent or at least working in a day care or school before being an entrepreneur would have really paid off!
- 13y ago
amix 13y ago
I remember reading "Hire the Right Customers"1), which kind of goes against this notion to try to please everyone. Some customers are just the wrong customers and not worth collecting. 1) http://gettingreal.37signals.com/ch04_Hire_the_Right_Customers.php http://gettingreal.37signals.com/ch04_Hire_the_Right_Custome...
tieTYT 13y ago
This seems like a story without an ending. A customer did something, she reacted and regretted it. Sure she's saying she should be more empathetic in the future but based off of what? The customer didn't reply after she made the "mistake". How does she know it would have made any difference? Maybe it wouldn't. Maybe things would have turned out worse. I don't see any evidence of a lesson. The article she linked to is much more useful IMO: http://37signals.com/svn/posts/3566-found-in-translation http://37signals.com/svn/posts/3566-found-in-translation It explains a technique and why it's worth doing.
Sealy 13y ago
I recently started to take an empathetic approach to answering customer queries. I noticed their responses changed significantly from angry to accepting. I remember reading a post on these pages that explained Apple's sales and support methods... to empathize with the customer. One message I got from giving customer feedback was that instead of saying 'No, that is not the problem' when a customer complains, I start by saying 'I understand how frustrating that could be'. That tone is enough to put the most angered customer at ease. With that approach, I rarely ever require a second response.
overgard 13y ago
I have a lot of empathy for people that just don't know what's going on -- so I wouldn't make fun of them for the initial mistake; but when someone politely explains something simple to you /twice/ and you're still being a jerk about it, I don't think those people deserve any empathy at all. The customer isn't always right. Sometimes the customer is just an idiot. Kudos to her for her positive attitude, but I don't think the customer deserved her kindness.
tudorconstantin 13y ago
Lesson learned: don't hire gingers as tech support
gexla 13y ago
TLDR Even if it's not your issue, you now own the problem. The customer has contacted you guys on this issue before and wasn't given a good enough answer. Now the customer is contacting you guys again in hopes of a better answer. If you don't give a good answer, then the customer may continue contacting you guys. You aren't saving time by brushing the customer off. You could have saved the day by looking up the information in the first place and relaying that to the customer. If and email isn't doing the trick, then place a phone call. ---- I used to do tech support for Microsoft Windows and we gave our best effort to give the customer information to fix dang near anything on their computer. Most people who called in were in our area of support, but sometimes we would get people calling in about other products. People saw us as their last line of support, their only lifeline when nobody else could help them. I think we were effective in this role because more than any other support desk, we had a great big picture view. A support rep for Intuit might know Quickbooks well, but might know nothing about the rest of the system which Quickbooks sits on. So, in some cases they might say "It's a Windows problem" and pawn the issue on us. I think just talking to people over the phone really helps as well. When you have someone who is so obviously tech challenged, then it's sometimes just that much more difficult when dealing with yet another tech abstraction over basic communication. So, customer calls in with something we don't support. In a friendly conversation we would explain that big picture view and tell the customer exactly what they need to know when contacting Quickbooks again. Sometimes the issue was so simple we could just Google the answer. Sure, it's wasting valuable support time, but in the end it could have saved time because the customer wouldn't continue to be bounced back and forth.

83 points by mh_ 13y ago

Ovid 13y ago

SVN is in that URL: http://37signals.com/svn/posts/3567-a-refresher-course-in-empathy http://37signals.com/svn/posts/3567-a-refresher-course-in-em... Does 37signals still use SVN and uses it to host their content directly?

eitland 13y ago
I think it is an abbreviation for signals versus noise (s/n) which used to be the title of their blog.
- alexjeffrey 13y ago
  it's still called signal vs. noise, but they use the name as heavily any more. From the page header: You’re reading Signal vs. Noise, a publication about the web by 37signals since 1999.

rancor 13y ago

When I saw this was on the 37signals blog, I reflexively expected a post by DHH, and now my funny bone is disappointed. Snark aside, any trick you can use to place the humanity of the other person you're interacting with in the forefront is going to help you avoid snapping at them, which is generally a good thing. The world can always use a little less hostility.

ambiate 13y ago

Today you, tomorrow me. Just to add content: hardware, software, programming, protocols, networks, chips, cords, formats, and onward. We are in a profession that creates a certain amount of ego once we have overcome an obstacle. There is an endless amount of information with an endless growth rate regarding technology. We are all ignorant -- it is just to what degree and which niche! I still remember 15 years ago and having my feelings hurt on a daily basis on EFnet. It hardened me, but I also learned how to dish out tolerance.

gcr 13y ago
> Today you, tomorrow me. For context, ambiate is likely referring to http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/elal2/have_you_ever_picked_up_a_hitchhiker/c18z0z2 http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/elal2/have_you_ev...

mlwarren 13y ago

For a customer that just doesn't get it, I don't see why the dishwasher/vacuum cleaner analogy is bad as long as it's delivered nicely.

nedwin 13y ago
I think part of the reason it's bad is that the customer still won't get why you won't get them. It's also bad because the solution was actually pretty straight forward send them the support docs (or the support contact) for their website. At least then you're pointing them in the right direction.
bcoates 13y ago
I doubt the customer failed to understand that the customer support rep thought that the issue wasn't their fault; the customer was getting angry because they thought the rep was wrong. Analogies don't convince and are often seen as condescending or evasive: "I asked for help, and I get word games"
- mlwarren 13y ago
  Ahh, see, I was under the impression that the customer was failing to understand. If they think the rep is wrong then that's a whole other problem. If that's the case then you're right, it does come off as condescending. I'm not sure of the best way to convince a customer (who is wrong) that is questioning the rep's expertise. Provide more data and explain differently, I guess.

mathattack 13y ago

Empathy to that level gets expensive! You have to really feel it to do it.

tomjen3 13y ago

What possible worth would we get from being empathetic with people who can't even understand the difference between ours and somebodyelse website? They are unlikely to become customers, and each support incident cost the company money. Yeah I am sure there is an emotional reason for it, but I am asking for a cold hearted logic reason.

positivejam 13y ago
>They are unlikely to become customers My reading of the original post was that she already was a customer but couldn't understand that her current problem wasn't actually with Basecamp. And I'm sure you know the stats about the difference in cost between acquiring new vs. retaining existing customers...
KeliNorth 13y ago
It's quite logical to practice one of the most important human communication skills at every opportunity possible. Practice makes perfect, and will hone the skill for use in situations where it will lead to direct benefits. If something isn't practiced, it can backfire when employed incorrectly. It also very much feels like it'd go against the point of being empathetic if the only time it's employed is in beneficial situations.
bryans 13y ago
A good, logical reason to be empathetic in all situations would be to help yourself. If you needlessly act negative toward another person, you will be more inclined to be negative about similar situations in the future. You are essentially training yourself to be negative which, I can assure you, bleeds into the rest of your life. It's important to recognize that even if you don't see value in being empathetic toward a particularly difficult individual, under different circumstances you are someone else's difficult individual. The paraphrased idiom "treat others as you want to be treated" has existed for thousands of years, for a lot of good reasons.
- GhotiFish 13y ago
  That first argument is unlikely to convince someone coming from a cold hard logic standpoint. Coming from a cold hard logic standpoint, that person is going to act in their best interest/companies best interest in all cases (or so the theory goes). I understand where you're coming from, but "Be nice to everyone to train yourself to be nice" isn't the optimal path from the companies perspective. Though you're second argument is effective in a global community kind of context.

xb95 13y ago

Amusingly, this post made a lot more sense when I remembered that boxers are a type of dog. That said, it's a great post and something that is all too easy to forget when you work with people, who often get angry at you when things aren't going their way. It's really kind of unfortunate, too; most companies have trained people that anger really is the best way to get something. If you yell, you might get a manager, and eventually the company just wants to placate you so that you go away. Now, people just reach for anger...

nedwin 13y ago

Great post. Shared it with our support team and everyone appreciated it so thank you! Proud to say one of the guys came back with this: "she should have just written her the first time: here write [to] these guys instead" :)

davidw 13y ago

Speaking of customer support... I'd love to read some good information about how to successfully set it up in a somewhat organized fashion. Tricks, tips, do's and don'ts... as well as some advice on trying to make the proper tradeoffs. Anyone got good books or other resources they can recommend?

mackesque 13y ago
Check out http://supportops.co http://supportops.co - Chase and the folks there publish some good stuff.
lesterbuck 13y ago
A while ago, I listened to a Mixergy interview with the founder of HelpScout. They have a content marketing strategy, and produce a lot of quality free content on customer service issues. https://www.helpscout.net/resources/ https://www.helpscout.net/resources/

krmmalik 13y ago

I ran an outsourced IT helpdesk company for many years, as well as online products. We used to get clients like this all the time. Here's how my staff were trained to handle this situation - the support staff would have asked the lady the name of her site, and the background story. Then patiently gotten to the bottom of the issue. After that would then either submit a support ticket on her behalf, or would call the company and put her in touch with them. Clients like this are very costly, especially if your business model isn't equipped to deal well with this, but all that said, empathy is about feeling what the other person feels. She clearly wanted a fix, so go fix it.

hobs 13y ago
But you were billing someone for it, right? They don't really get to do that in this situation. (if you were)

zallarak 13y ago

This is a wonderful article - too often we get caught up in our bubble of expertise -- most people don't understand basic software/internet architecture. As the Woz said, it's our job as tech workers to make things as intuitive as possible.

hoodoof 13y ago

Goodness, the irony of 37 signals lecturing others about empathy. http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2008/02/douchebaggery.html http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2008/02/douchebaggery.html and from the above article: http://codinghorror.typepad.com/.a/6a0120a85dcdae970b0120a86db600970b-pi http://codinghorror.typepad.com/.a/6a0120a85dcdae970b0120a86...

nicknorena 13y ago

"From now on, in my mind: Every time there’s a challenging case, the customer owns at least two boxers." A great lesson in how to make empathy something that you know is useful and something that you practice.

drewcoo 13y ago

I kept wondering why they didn't just contact the other company's support for the customer and make sure she was in contact with them. That's the kind of service customers rave about.

Udo 13y ago

Empathy goes both ways. That customer clearly had none, and furthermore didn't believe the support person when they repeatedly tried to explain things to her. We tend to see things like, say, boxers on their website and we instantly feel a connection to a person where none may be warranted. To unilaterally make that connection with an abusive person is a recipe for unhappiness and disappointment. I feel reminded about my startup time, we had customers like this. "The website you built doesn't work." - "Why, what's wrong?" - "I don't know, but I can't get on the internet today. This is your fault. I want my money back." - "Sir, if your internet is down, that's nothing we can help you with. Also, I thought things were going pretty good with our project." - "If you can't help me, you're clearly incompetent. I'm going to sue you. You broke my emails, too." And so on. A few times we actually sent someone over there to help with (in this example) their faulty DSL connection. This never solves anything. There won't be any gratitude, and the customer will be reinforced in thinking it's your fault. In essence they're being rewarded for abusiveness and unwillingness to think, too. From now on, every time his connection breaks it will be your fault. And you can't bill that time either. Furthermore, while you're sending someone over on the basis of goodwill and empathy, that guy will badmouth you all over town. Of course, people have bad days, and there can be mitigating factors. But if someone is clearly not listening to a single word you say and is incapable of understanding facts, it's time to let that customer go. I can't say this emphatically enough: it's not worth it. Identifying personally with that person will only make you suffer even more - you have to keep in mind that they're certainly not making 1% of the effort you're expending on their problem.

bherms 13y ago
Granfaloonism, as per Vonnegut http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granfalloon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granfalloon edit: this is in re to the first paragraph on unnecessary connection
OldSchool 13y ago
As incredible as these customer interaction stories are, they are 100% true. Customer service is an area where having experience as a parent or at least working in a day care or school before being an entrepreneur would have really paid off!
13y ago

amix 13y ago

I remember reading "Hire the Right Customers"1), which kind of goes against this notion to try to please everyone. Some customers are just the wrong customers and not worth collecting. 1) http://gettingreal.37signals.com/ch04_Hire_the_Right_Customers.php http://gettingreal.37signals.com/ch04_Hire_the_Right_Custome...

tieTYT 13y ago

This seems like a story without an ending. A customer did something, she reacted and regretted it. Sure she's saying she should be more empathetic in the future but based off of what? The customer didn't reply after she made the "mistake". How does she know it would have made any difference? Maybe it wouldn't. Maybe things would have turned out worse. I don't see any evidence of a lesson. The article she linked to is much more useful IMO: http://37signals.com/svn/posts/3566-found-in-translation http://37signals.com/svn/posts/3566-found-in-translation It explains a technique and why it's worth doing.

Sealy 13y ago

I recently started to take an empathetic approach to answering customer queries. I noticed their responses changed significantly from angry to accepting. I remember reading a post on these pages that explained Apple's sales and support methods... to empathize with the customer. One message I got from giving customer feedback was that instead of saying 'No, that is not the problem' when a customer complains, I start by saying 'I understand how frustrating that could be'. That tone is enough to put the most angered customer at ease. With that approach, I rarely ever require a second response.

overgard 13y ago

I have a lot of empathy for people that just don't know what's going on -- so I wouldn't make fun of them for the initial mistake; but when someone politely explains something simple to you /twice/ and you're still being a jerk about it, I don't think those people deserve any empathy at all. The customer isn't always right. Sometimes the customer is just an idiot. Kudos to her for her positive attitude, but I don't think the customer deserved her kindness.

tudorconstantin 13y ago

Lesson learned: don't hire gingers as tech support

gexla 13y ago

TLDR Even if it's not your issue, you now own the problem. The customer has contacted you guys on this issue before and wasn't given a good enough answer. Now the customer is contacting you guys again in hopes of a better answer. If you don't give a good answer, then the customer may continue contacting you guys. You aren't saving time by brushing the customer off. You could have saved the day by looking up the information in the first place and relaying that to the customer. If and email isn't doing the trick, then place a phone call. ---- I used to do tech support for Microsoft Windows and we gave our best effort to give the customer information to fix dang near anything on their computer. Most people who called in were in our area of support, but sometimes we would get people calling in about other products. People saw us as their last line of support, their only lifeline when nobody else could help them. I think we were effective in this role because more than any other support desk, we had a great big picture view. A support rep for Intuit might know Quickbooks well, but might know nothing about the rest of the system which Quickbooks sits on. So, in some cases they might say "It's a Windows problem" and pawn the issue on us. I think just talking to people over the phone really helps as well. When you have someone who is so obviously tech challenged, then it's sometimes just that much more difficult when dealing with yet another tech abstraction over basic communication. So, customer calls in with something we don't support. In a friendly conversation we would explain that big picture view and tell the customer exactly what they need to know when contacting Quickbooks again. Sometimes the issue was so simple we could just Google the answer. Sure, it's wasting valuable support time, but in the end it could have saved time because the customer wouldn't continue to be bounced back and forth.