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In the interest of playing devil's advocate, couldn't the fact that we have 94 guns per 100 Americans have something to do with it? To be honest, the cops that

In the interest of playing devil's advocate, couldn't the fact that we have 94 guns per 100 Americans have something to do with it? To be honest, the cops that work in Oakland, Compton, Detroit, Chicago, and many other cities effectively are fighting wars with heavily armed gangs, etc. I don't know that I buy the notion that police are the way they are today because of the Civil Rights Movement and Vietnam protests. Seems to me like the rise of inner city violence is a far bigger mover. Not trying to justify militarized police, just trying to understand the reasons why in order to logically approach alternatives.

cobrausn 13y ago
America has always had that many guns, but the police weren't always militarized. In addition, the amount of crime and number of police killed in the line of duty has steadily decreased over the years. The devil's advocate in me wonders if the number of police killed is reduced because of the heavy use of SWAT whenever they think there might be any threat to an officer in a raid.
- bicknergseng 13y ago
  America hasn't always had as many guns as it has now, nor the population density. Emphasis on population density and urbanification.
  - cobrausn 13y ago
    In regards to the first point, yes, there are more guns. I don't think the percentage of the population that owns 1 or more firearms has increased significantly.
roc 13y ago
> "Seems to me like the rise of inner city violence is a far bigger mover." What rise? Crime, inner city included, has been plunging, nationwide, for decades now. Major city crime rates are approaching fifty year lows.
- bicknergseng 13y ago
  It's been dropping since the 90s, but so far as I can tell there has been a large increase in violent crime rates since the 60s. If we're at a 50 year low in rates, what does that mean for the total number of violent crimes? Which raises other questions. Has our militarized police force contributed to declining crime in the past 20 years? If so, to what extent?
bilbo0s 13y ago
Murders are WAY down from their peaks in the 90's. And that's across the board. So what violence are they encountering now, that they didn't encounter in... say ... '93 when they had no APC?
- knowaveragejoe 13y ago
  In continuing the devil's advocate angle here, there is a lot of scary stuff going on in Mexico right now. Some of that spilling over the border(or more realistically, the people and equipment are already here just unnoticed) is a possibility.
  - bilbo0s 13y ago
    But that's supposition. Have there been any border skirmishes, or skirmishes in cities with large Hispanic populations, (I assume you are talking about Mexican Cartels), where the police faced these well equipped Mexican Cartels? I don't know if there have or haven't... that was not snark, but a serious question. My suspicion is that there have not been any such engagements.
    - rdouble 13y ago
      No. Cartel crime is almost exclusively in Mexico.
- bicknergseng 13y ago
  Again, devil's advocate. The Hollywood Shootout was in 97. Murders might be down, but I don't think it's murder rates alone that drive policy in the area.
  - bilbo0s 13y ago
    Yeah... but that's still the 90's??? Again.. what violence are they seeing now, that they did not see at that time?

cobrausn 13y ago

America has always had that many guns, but the police weren't always militarized. In addition, the amount of crime and number of police killed in the line of duty has steadily decreased over the years. The devil's advocate in me wonders if the number of police killed is reduced because of the heavy use of SWAT whenever they think there might be any threat to an officer in a raid.

bicknergseng 13y ago
America hasn't always had as many guns as it has now, nor the population density. Emphasis on population density and urbanification.
- cobrausn 13y ago
  In regards to the first point, yes, there are more guns. I don't think the percentage of the population that owns 1 or more firearms has increased significantly.

roc 13y ago

> "Seems to me like the rise of inner city violence is a far bigger mover." What rise? Crime, inner city included, has been plunging, nationwide, for decades now. Major city crime rates are approaching fifty year lows.

bicknergseng 13y ago
It's been dropping since the 90s, but so far as I can tell there has been a large increase in violent crime rates since the 60s. If we're at a 50 year low in rates, what does that mean for the total number of violent crimes? Which raises other questions. Has our militarized police force contributed to declining crime in the past 20 years? If so, to what extent?

bilbo0s 13y ago

Murders are WAY down from their peaks in the 90's. And that's across the board. So what violence are they encountering now, that they didn't encounter in... say ... '93 when they had no APC?

knowaveragejoe 13y ago
In continuing the devil's advocate angle here, there is a lot of scary stuff going on in Mexico right now. Some of that spilling over the border(or more realistically, the people and equipment are already here just unnoticed) is a possibility.
- bilbo0s 13y ago
  But that's supposition. Have there been any border skirmishes, or skirmishes in cities with large Hispanic populations, (I assume you are talking about Mexican Cartels), where the police faced these well equipped Mexican Cartels? I don't know if there have or haven't... that was not snark, but a serious question. My suspicion is that there have not been any such engagements.
  - rdouble 13y ago
    No. Cartel crime is almost exclusively in Mexico.
bicknergseng 13y ago
Again, devil's advocate. The Hollywood Shootout was in 97. Murders might be down, but I don't think it's murder rates alone that drive policy in the area.
- bilbo0s 13y ago
  Yeah... but that's still the 90's??? Again.. what violence are they seeing now, that they did not see at that time?