11 ms·

This is true but a lot of these murders are gang related so it isn't quite a great comparison not? I know the topics of guns in america is a hot topic in gener

by mitchty 13y ago

This is true but a lot of these murders are gang related so it isn't quite a great comparison not? I know the topics of guns in america is a hot topic in general but even for the usa the general trend is downward.

rayiner 13y ago
Gang-related murders are the result of gang activity, and gang-activity is very scary for a community. First, lots of teenagers and young people are gang members, and gangs have major presences in inner-city schools, so even a "gang-related murder" isn't like some mobster getting killed, but something that hits really close to home in the community. Second, this activity is very geographically segregated, which makes particular neighborhoods seem more like war zones. Third, even a few innocent bystanders getting caught in the cross-fire can have a chilling effect on the community. In Chicago this year, a kid who sang at Obama's inauguration was gunned down in gang-related cross-fire. Just one kid in a city of 2.7 million people, but it still had a tremendous effect on the community. The trend in America is definitely downward--murder counts in LA county and NYC are about a fifth of what they were in the early 1990's, but they are still 4x higher than London's (greater London is roughly similar in population to LA county and NYC). And the militarization of the U.S. police didn't happen overnight. It happened in the 1970's-1990's when crime rates in U.S. cities skyrocketed. That apparatus hasn't demobilized in response to decreased crime rates.
- king_jester 13y ago
  > Gang-related murders are the result of gang activity, and gang-activity is very scary for a community. First, lots of teenagers and young people are gang members, and gangs have major presences in inner-city schools, so even a "gang-related murder" isn't like some mobster getting killed, but something that hits really close to home in the community. Second, this activity is very geographically segregated, which makes particular neighborhoods seem more like war zones. Third, even a few innocent bystanders getting caught in the cross-fire can have a chilling effect on the community. In Chicago this year, a kid who sang at Obama's inauguration was gunned down in gang-related cross-fire. Just one kid in a city of 2.7 million people, but it still had a tremendous effect on the community. Of course, the solution for this is not policing but rather to address the fundamental social inequalities that make gangs thrive. > And the militarization of the U.S. police didn't happen overnight. It happened in the 1970's-1990's when crime rates in U.S. cities skyrocketed. Violent crime rates in cities have been on a declining trend since the late 70s/early 80s. The militarization isn't caused by violent crime, because we would expect as rates fall that there would be no call to increase police power at any given time. You are definitely right, the policing issue is really institutional in nature, but as a systemic kind of effect it isn't necessarily tied to any factual reality about crime.
  - rayiner 13y ago
    > The militarization isn't caused by violent crime, because we would expect as rates fall that there would be no call to increase police power at any given time. The militarization can have been caused by violent crime without being perpetuated by it.
  - gizmo686 13y ago
    >Of course, the solution for this is not policing but rather to address the fundamental social inequalities that make gangs thrive. I disagree that the fundamental reason for gangs is social inequality. The feature that general makes gangs distinct from clubs is their use of force. They use force for the same reason society at large uses force, to protect property /enforce contracts/ensure fair play. Society at large has conceeded this force to the government (specifically the police department), however when the police fail to protect a certain group of people, then those people may be forced to take enforcement into their own hands, which is exactly what gangs do. This problem stems largly from the war on drugs. There is a huge economic force pushing for drug sales, so capitalism tells us that drugs will be sold. However, the people engaging in the drug trade cannot rely on the legal system for the protections any other business has, so they have to do it themselves.
- yardie 13y ago
  Also remember the war on drugs rocketed the number of incarcerations. Under Reagan small-time offenders went into prison for 5-10 years and emerged hardened, smarter criminals. In the mean time the removal of so many males from communities allowed an entire generation of kids and teenagers to be preyed on by gangs.
vacri 13y ago
I've never understood the argument that somehow gang crime isn't crime that should make it to the statistics books.
- mitchty 13y ago
  And that wasn't my point at all. My point being gang on gang violence perpetuated by societal issues (say for Chicago black gang members) isn't a great comparison of 2.7 million people in Chicago and N deaths/murders versus N million people in $western_country with N/4 murders isn't really describing the issues. It alludes the issues as being related to things which are fundamentally different and not directly or easily statistically comparable.
  - rayiner 13y ago
    I used to live in Chicago. The fact that almost all murders in Chicago happen to blacks and Hispanics, many of them in gangs, doesn't reduce people's incentive to support stronger police presence. Indeed, it makes it easier. You fear the gangs taking the red line up to the north side, but don't care so much about more aggressive policing because those cops aren't kicking down doors in your neighborhood.
joseph_cooney 13y ago
And there are no gangs in London?

by mitchty 13y ago

rayiner 13y ago

Gang-related murders are the result of gang activity, and gang-activity is very scary for a community. First, lots of teenagers and young people are gang members, and gangs have major presences in inner-city schools, so even a "gang-related murder" isn't like some mobster getting killed, but something that hits really close to home in the community. Second, this activity is very geographically segregated, which makes particular neighborhoods seem more like war zones. Third, even a few innocent bystanders getting caught in the cross-fire can have a chilling effect on the community. In Chicago this year, a kid who sang at Obama's inauguration was gunned down in gang-related cross-fire. Just one kid in a city of 2.7 million people, but it still had a tremendous effect on the community. The trend in America is definitely downward--murder counts in LA county and NYC are about a fifth of what they were in the early 1990's, but they are still 4x higher than London's (greater London is roughly similar in population to LA county and NYC). And the militarization of the U.S. police didn't happen overnight. It happened in the 1970's-1990's when crime rates in U.S. cities skyrocketed. That apparatus hasn't demobilized in response to decreased crime rates.

king_jester 13y ago
> Gang-related murders are the result of gang activity, and gang-activity is very scary for a community. First, lots of teenagers and young people are gang members, and gangs have major presences in inner-city schools, so even a "gang-related murder" isn't like some mobster getting killed, but something that hits really close to home in the community. Second, this activity is very geographically segregated, which makes particular neighborhoods seem more like war zones. Third, even a few innocent bystanders getting caught in the cross-fire can have a chilling effect on the community. In Chicago this year, a kid who sang at Obama's inauguration was gunned down in gang-related cross-fire. Just one kid in a city of 2.7 million people, but it still had a tremendous effect on the community. Of course, the solution for this is not policing but rather to address the fundamental social inequalities that make gangs thrive. > And the militarization of the U.S. police didn't happen overnight. It happened in the 1970's-1990's when crime rates in U.S. cities skyrocketed. Violent crime rates in cities have been on a declining trend since the late 70s/early 80s. The militarization isn't caused by violent crime, because we would expect as rates fall that there would be no call to increase police power at any given time. You are definitely right, the policing issue is really institutional in nature, but as a systemic kind of effect it isn't necessarily tied to any factual reality about crime.
- rayiner 13y ago
  > The militarization isn't caused by violent crime, because we would expect as rates fall that there would be no call to increase police power at any given time. The militarization can have been caused by violent crime without being perpetuated by it.
- gizmo686 13y ago
  >Of course, the solution for this is not policing but rather to address the fundamental social inequalities that make gangs thrive. I disagree that the fundamental reason for gangs is social inequality. The feature that general makes gangs distinct from clubs is their use of force. They use force for the same reason society at large uses force, to protect property /enforce contracts/ensure fair play. Society at large has conceeded this force to the government (specifically the police department), however when the police fail to protect a certain group of people, then those people may be forced to take enforcement into their own hands, which is exactly what gangs do. This problem stems largly from the war on drugs. There is a huge economic force pushing for drug sales, so capitalism tells us that drugs will be sold. However, the people engaging in the drug trade cannot rely on the legal system for the protections any other business has, so they have to do it themselves.
yardie 13y ago
Also remember the war on drugs rocketed the number of incarcerations. Under Reagan small-time offenders went into prison for 5-10 years and emerged hardened, smarter criminals. In the mean time the removal of so many males from communities allowed an entire generation of kids and teenagers to be preyed on by gangs.

vacri 13y ago

I've never understood the argument that somehow gang crime isn't crime that should make it to the statistics books.

mitchty 13y ago
And that wasn't my point at all. My point being gang on gang violence perpetuated by societal issues (say for Chicago black gang members) isn't a great comparison of 2.7 million people in Chicago and N deaths/murders versus N million people in $western_country with N/4 murders isn't really describing the issues. It alludes the issues as being related to things which are fundamentally different and not directly or easily statistically comparable.
- rayiner 13y ago
  I used to live in Chicago. The fact that almost all murders in Chicago happen to blacks and Hispanics, many of them in gangs, doesn't reduce people's incentive to support stronger police presence. Indeed, it makes it easier. You fear the gangs taking the red line up to the north side, but don't care so much about more aggressive policing because those cops aren't kicking down doors in your neighborhood.

joseph_cooney 13y ago

And there are no gangs in London?