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> the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court has for years been developing what is effectively a secret and unchallenged body of law on core Fourth Amendment i

> the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court has for years been developing what is effectively a secret and unchallenged body of law on core Fourth Amendment issues, producing lengthy classified rulings based on the arguments of the federal government — the only party allowed in the courtroom It is sad indeed, but perhaps every political system sooner or later becomes a tyranny and dictatorship. It may be just a matter of time. If that's true then we live in the most amazing timeline of humans' evolution, and we should all appreciate it enormously.

deleted 13y ago
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sendos 13y ago
> > the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court has for years been developing what is effectively a secret and unchallenged body of law on core Fourth Amendment issues, producing lengthy classified rulings based on the arguments of the federal government — the only party allowed in the courtroom It seems to me that we are doing a disservice to the terms 'law' and 'court' if we call a "secret and unchallenged body" of decisions 'law' and we call a place where the federal government is "the only party allowed in" a 'courtroom' Let's not give this travesty any more legitimacy than it deserves > It is sad indeed, but perhaps every political system sooner or later becomes a tyranny and dictatorship. It may be just a matter of time. Quite possibly.
rayiner 13y ago
> It is sad indeed, but perhaps every political system sooner or later becomes a tyranny and dictatorship. Uh, are we observing the same history here? The trend has distinctly been in the other direction. I'm less afraid of the NSA circa 2013, than Hoover's FBI from the middle of the 20th century, or McCarthy's Senate in the 1950's. The British's Parliament has governed Britain with tremendous continuity for about 325 years now, and it has on the whole only become more democratic over that time. The Soviet Union fell, East Germany fell. Brazil is ripe for democratic reform. Even China probably won't be able to stave off democracy forever at its current pace of development.
- aetherson 13y ago
  While I agree with you that there has been lots of historical movement away from tyranny, you'd be a fool to fear McCarthy's Senate of the 50's more than the intelligence apparatus of today. According to wikipedia: "Between 1949 and 1954, a total of 109 investigations were carried out by these and other committees of Congress." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism The Hollywood blacklist at its height listed 300 people. Despite how high-profile it was, these institutions touched microscopic handfuls of people, and they were considerably more public and easy to oppose than the modern NSA. Compare: Modern NSA is pretty clearly keeping files on pretty much everyone. Hundreds of millions of people, conservatively. Number of people on terrorist watch lists: Unclear, anywhere from thousands to millions. Number of FISA warrants granted: In recent years, from a low of 1,300 (2009) to a high of 1,700 (2012). Call it 6,000 in the period 2009-2012. Number of people killed via drone strikes: 2,000 to 3,000. You are VASTLY more likely to impacted by the modern surveillance state than you ever were by the McCarthy investigations, and the government at least holds out the possibility that they will assassinate you without due process, which to my knowledge the McCarthy investigations never did. I suspect that a similar scale argument holds with Hoover's FBI, though I don't know how I would prove it.
  - griffordson 13y ago
    The 1950's intelligence community was no joke either. In fact, the CIA probably played a very large role in bringing an end to McCarthyism. See the following for an interesting tour through that slice of history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird#Directorate_for_Plans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird#Director... http://carlbernstein.com/magazine_cia_and_media.php http://carlbernstein.com/magazine_cia_and_media.php A couple of representative articles from that time period: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=5MleAAAAIBAJ&sjid=djIMAAAAIBAJ&dq=alsop%20mccarthy&pg=3493%2C1113850 http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=5MleAAAAIBAJ&sjid=djIMA... http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=I8pNAAAAIBAJ&sjid=MYoDAAAAIBAJ&dq=drew%20pearson%20mccarthy&pg=1628%2C6235663 http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=I8pNAAAAIBAJ&sjid=MYoDA... Things only got worse for McCarthy through the rest of '53 and into '54.

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sendos 13y ago

> > the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court has for years been developing what is effectively a secret and unchallenged body of law on core Fourth Amendment issues, producing lengthy classified rulings based on the arguments of the federal government — the only party allowed in the courtroom It seems to me that we are doing a disservice to the terms 'law' and 'court' if we call a "secret and unchallenged body" of decisions 'law' and we call a place where the federal government is "the only party allowed in" a 'courtroom' Let's not give this travesty any more legitimacy than it deserves > It is sad indeed, but perhaps every political system sooner or later becomes a tyranny and dictatorship. It may be just a matter of time. Quite possibly.

rayiner 13y ago

> It is sad indeed, but perhaps every political system sooner or later becomes a tyranny and dictatorship. Uh, are we observing the same history here? The trend has distinctly been in the other direction. I'm less afraid of the NSA circa 2013, than Hoover's FBI from the middle of the 20th century, or McCarthy's Senate in the 1950's. The British's Parliament has governed Britain with tremendous continuity for about 325 years now, and it has on the whole only become more democratic over that time. The Soviet Union fell, East Germany fell. Brazil is ripe for democratic reform. Even China probably won't be able to stave off democracy forever at its current pace of development.

aetherson 13y ago
While I agree with you that there has been lots of historical movement away from tyranny, you'd be a fool to fear McCarthy's Senate of the 50's more than the intelligence apparatus of today. According to wikipedia: "Between 1949 and 1954, a total of 109 investigations were carried out by these and other committees of Congress." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism The Hollywood blacklist at its height listed 300 people. Despite how high-profile it was, these institutions touched microscopic handfuls of people, and they were considerably more public and easy to oppose than the modern NSA. Compare: Modern NSA is pretty clearly keeping files on pretty much everyone. Hundreds of millions of people, conservatively. Number of people on terrorist watch lists: Unclear, anywhere from thousands to millions. Number of FISA warrants granted: In recent years, from a low of 1,300 (2009) to a high of 1,700 (2012). Call it 6,000 in the period 2009-2012. Number of people killed via drone strikes: 2,000 to 3,000. You are VASTLY more likely to impacted by the modern surveillance state than you ever were by the McCarthy investigations, and the government at least holds out the possibility that they will assassinate you without due process, which to my knowledge the McCarthy investigations never did. I suspect that a similar scale argument holds with Hoover's FBI, though I don't know how I would prove it.
- griffordson 13y ago
  The 1950's intelligence community was no joke either. In fact, the CIA probably played a very large role in bringing an end to McCarthyism. See the following for an interesting tour through that slice of history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird#Directorate_for_Plans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird#Director... http://carlbernstein.com/magazine_cia_and_media.php http://carlbernstein.com/magazine_cia_and_media.php A couple of representative articles from that time period: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=5MleAAAAIBAJ&sjid=djIMAAAAIBAJ&dq=alsop%20mccarthy&pg=3493%2C1113850 http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=5MleAAAAIBAJ&sjid=djIMA... http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=I8pNAAAAIBAJ&sjid=MYoDAAAAIBAJ&dq=drew%20pearson%20mccarthy&pg=1628%2C6235663 http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=I8pNAAAAIBAJ&sjid=MYoDA... Things only got worse for McCarthy through the rest of '53 and into '54.