4 ms·

I never understood the allure of having a real-money economy (or something that is closely tied to real money) in a game. On that note, many MMOs seem to be str

by Udo 13y ago

I never understood the allure of having a real-money economy (or something that is closely tied to real money) in a game. On that note, many MMOs seem to be structured like actual work places, complete with command hierarchies, politics and territory. This must be immensely appealing to a lot of people, but it's pretty far removed from my understanding of a fun pastime. But once you're past that, does it really make a difference if that item is worth $90 or $9000? There will always be really rich and influential players around and I'm sure it's not that big of a deal to them. After all, if there was no risk of losing that item, they wouldn't have bought it in the first place. In a real-money game, the material worth of an item is a direct measure of what's at stake, and if the stakes aren't high people aren't having fun.

megablast 13y ago
Did you ever play old arcade games? The fact that you had to spend money made playing the game more exciting, you actually had something to lose. I guess it is the same in these games.
- Udo 13y ago
  As you might guess, I was never into arcade games. They just never made sense to me when I could play much better games at home or at friends' places. Then again, maybe I just missed the height of the arcade wave based on timing.
kmfrk 13y ago
Ever played poker? Playing with and without real money are two completely different games. As long as we aren't talking scummy DLC tactics like Zynga's, I think it's a great idea, but it's obviously only something skilled developers should use.
- Udo 13y ago
  I'm not complaining these games exist, I just don't see the appeal. It's not a critique, just an observation. But to people who are into this whole "buying excitement linearly by the dollar" thing the occasional loss of a $9000 spaceship should not be that shocking.
  - dfc 13y ago
    "I'm not complaining these games exist...But to people who are into this whole 'buying excitement linearly by the dollar' thing" I realize you said that this was "not a critique" but most of your comments, especially this little gem, come off _very condescending_. When you preface your comment with "I'm not complaining that these games exist" you have to realize that what follows is a critique? Similarly when I hear someone start off a sentence with "I'm not racist but" I know some ignorant shit is about to be said. As far as video games go, Eve is so different than the kind I enjoy (CoD/BF) that it is hard to believe they are in the same category of leisure activities. Half the reason I watched as much of the replay as I did was that I was hoping someone was going to yell "LEROY JENKINS!" But I also watched as much as I did because it is interesting to see people (that are very different than me) playing a game they deeply enjoy. Can I ever imagine playing Eve? Not a chance. But that does not mean I am going to try and pass my condescending passive aggressive bullshit critique off as a rational analysis of why people should not get emotionally invested in their hobbies. As far as I can tell there is nothing "linear" about playing Eve. I have to imagine that if you put your favorite hobby on display everyone could come up with equally witty ways of demeaning your personal choices/preferences.
    - Udo 13y ago
      I didn't realize this, no. And it wasn't meant like that. > I'm suspicious of people with mixed case usernames on HN. Ah, I see.
      - dfc 13y ago
        I might as well ask. What did you mean when you said "buying excitement linearly" ?
        Udo 13y ago
        Might as well answer. There are a lot of games where you're paying a fixed price or at least a comparatively minor contribution that isn't necessarily tied to the level of enjoyment or participation you get from it. In these cases, you're expending the monetary equivalent of activation energy and then the game is basically whatever you make of it. At the other end of the spectrum are games where you have to make an ongoing investment to get something out of the game that matches this investment with a linear factor or worse. Online Poker would probably be an example, but it lacks the social pressure exerted by some MMOs, games where you actually feel you're going to a kind of workplace and where real money is at stake constantly (which in turn is a large part of the players' motivation to achieve things). Diablo III made me feel this way, for instance, it's more a free market simulation than an action RPG. Eve would be in that category, too. Many other MMOs either discourage trading for money and/or are making time and effort the primary player currency. Contrast this with games where real money is closely coupled with any kind of high-level content.
- berntb 13y ago
  EVE I can see myself playing enough to destroy my life, money or no money. It scares me. Poker is a different kind of money game. Poker seems fascinating, but the problem is the money. If poker wasn't about money, the ideal players to play with are a bit better than me. Since it is about money, the ideal players to play with are overconfident drunks/halfwits with money. Just not fun.
  - canvia 13y ago
    Money isn't the problem, it's the entire reason the game is so engaging. If poker wasn't about money it would be a different game. There has to be an element of risk otherwise decisions do not have any consequences. Without consequences there is no incentive to attempt to play in an optimal manner. The problem is a player's aversion to risk and fear of loss, both of which are important psychological elements when playing the game.
  - FireBeyond 13y ago
    EVE: Very true. It's a game that's entirely possible to get involved in to a level that is a different kind of obsessed than, say, WOW. EVE is all about people, interaction, politics, planning. WOW Raids, however complex thy get at higher levels, just can't ever compare. I've started, and stopped playing, many times, because of it.
socillion 13y ago
Any sufficiently popular online game is closely tied to real money, it doesn't matter whether the vendor officially endorses it - or even actively tries to stamp it out. The sensationalist dollar amounts seem to be the main reason that these stories get read so widely. Someone could have bought it for that amount, or maybe he spent thousands of hours accumulating the resources in game and bought the ship because it was one out of 3 in existence. Just because you can put a price tag on it doesn't mean the player saw it as losing that much real money. "Don't fly it if you don't want to lose it" is common advice among EVE players.
- DanBC 13y ago
  > or maybe he spent thousands of hours Wouldn't that make it worth much more than $9,000?
  - socillion 13y ago
    Very possible, but people aren't perfectly logical and are unlikely to consider the opportunity costs of having fun.
  - superuser2 13y ago
    If the thousands of hours came from time that could otherwise be billable. If you're the sort of person that's never going to sell your Saturday, maybe not.
dedward 13y ago
It's not closely tied to real money; not by design. That's a side effect, due to the relative stability of the in-game currency, and the ability to convert in-game currency into in-game stuff, and the number of players. This creates a real-world demand for in-game stuff, and bingo, you have a market.

by Udo 13y ago

megablast 13y ago

Did you ever play old arcade games? The fact that you had to spend money made playing the game more exciting, you actually had something to lose. I guess it is the same in these games.

Udo 13y ago
As you might guess, I was never into arcade games. They just never made sense to me when I could play much better games at home or at friends' places. Then again, maybe I just missed the height of the arcade wave based on timing.

kmfrk 13y ago

Ever played poker? Playing with and without real money are two completely different games. As long as we aren't talking scummy DLC tactics like Zynga's, I think it's a great idea, but it's obviously only something skilled developers should use.

Udo 13y ago
I'm not complaining these games exist, I just don't see the appeal. It's not a critique, just an observation. But to people who are into this whole "buying excitement linearly by the dollar" thing the occasional loss of a $9000 spaceship should not be that shocking.
- dfc 13y ago
  "I'm not complaining these games exist...But to people who are into this whole 'buying excitement linearly by the dollar' thing" I realize you said that this was "not a critique" but most of your comments, especially this little gem, come off _very condescending_. When you preface your comment with "I'm not complaining that these games exist" you have to realize that what follows is a critique? Similarly when I hear someone start off a sentence with "I'm not racist but" I know some ignorant shit is about to be said. As far as video games go, Eve is so different than the kind I enjoy (CoD/BF) that it is hard to believe they are in the same category of leisure activities. Half the reason I watched as much of the replay as I did was that I was hoping someone was going to yell "LEROY JENKINS!" But I also watched as much as I did because it is interesting to see people (that are very different than me) playing a game they deeply enjoy. Can I ever imagine playing Eve? Not a chance. But that does not mean I am going to try and pass my condescending passive aggressive bullshit critique off as a rational analysis of why people should not get emotionally invested in their hobbies. As far as I can tell there is nothing "linear" about playing Eve. I have to imagine that if you put your favorite hobby on display everyone could come up with equally witty ways of demeaning your personal choices/preferences.
  - Udo 13y ago
    I didn't realize this, no. And it wasn't meant like that. > I'm suspicious of people with mixed case usernames on HN. Ah, I see.
    - dfc 13y ago
      I might as well ask. What did you mean when you said "buying excitement linearly" ?
      - Udo 13y ago
        Might as well answer. There are a lot of games where you're paying a fixed price or at least a comparatively minor contribution that isn't necessarily tied to the level of enjoyment or participation you get from it. In these cases, you're expending the monetary equivalent of activation energy and then the game is basically whatever you make of it. At the other end of the spectrum are games where you have to make an ongoing investment to get something out of the game that matches this investment with a linear factor or worse. Online Poker would probably be an example, but it lacks the social pressure exerted by some MMOs, games where you actually feel you're going to a kind of workplace and where real money is at stake constantly (which in turn is a large part of the players' motivation to achieve things). Diablo III made me feel this way, for instance, it's more a free market simulation than an action RPG. Eve would be in that category, too. Many other MMOs either discourage trading for money and/or are making time and effort the primary player currency. Contrast this with games where real money is closely coupled with any kind of high-level content.
berntb 13y ago
EVE I can see myself playing enough to destroy my life, money or no money. It scares me. Poker is a different kind of money game. Poker seems fascinating, but the problem is the money. If poker wasn't about money, the ideal players to play with are a bit better than me. Since it is about money, the ideal players to play with are overconfident drunks/halfwits with money. Just not fun.
- canvia 13y ago
  Money isn't the problem, it's the entire reason the game is so engaging. If poker wasn't about money it would be a different game. There has to be an element of risk otherwise decisions do not have any consequences. Without consequences there is no incentive to attempt to play in an optimal manner. The problem is a player's aversion to risk and fear of loss, both of which are important psychological elements when playing the game.
- FireBeyond 13y ago
  EVE: Very true. It's a game that's entirely possible to get involved in to a level that is a different kind of obsessed than, say, WOW. EVE is all about people, interaction, politics, planning. WOW Raids, however complex thy get at higher levels, just can't ever compare. I've started, and stopped playing, many times, because of it.

socillion 13y ago

Any sufficiently popular online game is closely tied to real money, it doesn't matter whether the vendor officially endorses it - or even actively tries to stamp it out. The sensationalist dollar amounts seem to be the main reason that these stories get read so widely. Someone could have bought it for that amount, or maybe he spent thousands of hours accumulating the resources in game and bought the ship because it was one out of 3 in existence. Just because you can put a price tag on it doesn't mean the player saw it as losing that much real money. "Don't fly it if you don't want to lose it" is common advice among EVE players.

DanBC 13y ago
> or maybe he spent thousands of hours Wouldn't that make it worth much more than $9,000?
- socillion 13y ago
  Very possible, but people aren't perfectly logical and are unlikely to consider the opportunity costs of having fun.
- superuser2 13y ago
  If the thousands of hours came from time that could otherwise be billable. If you're the sort of person that's never going to sell your Saturday, maybe not.

dedward 13y ago

It's not closely tied to real money; not by design. That's a side effect, due to the relative stability of the in-game currency, and the ability to convert in-game currency into in-game stuff, and the number of players. This creates a real-world demand for in-game stuff, and bingo, you have a market.