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> "Math, Science Popular Until Students Realize They’re Hard" Well, if that's not "begging the question" then I don't know what is. If math & science is so ha

by polemic 13y ago

> "Math, Science Popular Until Students Realize They’re Hard" Well, if that's not "begging the question" then I don't know what is. If math & science is so hard, the real question should be: why the hell is everything else so 'easy'?

psbp 13y ago
I think the problem is skill related. Most U.S students just don't have the proper foundation in math to do well in physics, engineering, or even bio and chemistry. I don't think majors like philosophy or english are implicitly any easier (I went to a school where they were seemingly pretty difficult majors), but they're much easier in comparison to subjects where you many students lack years of fundamental work.
- eshvk 13y ago
  I have spent time in educational systems outside the U.S., I don't think it is a U.S. centric problem. Math and the sciences are extremely cumulative, this means that you have to keep at it. That in turn either requires passion or a system much like exists in China/India where you have an entire nation designed to put as much pressure on kids to make sure they get good grades on one silly exam or the other. This shit is hard, which is why not a lot of people survive at it. I don't see how America can move to the Asian system of training without a lot of people here rebelling against that. Maybe an alternative would be to expose kids to the idea that life is actually hard in the real world sooner.
- auctiontheory 13y ago
  In my experience, it was quite easy to take and even do well in upper-division humanities classes (specifically philosophy) without any lower-division work in the major. Jumping from high school to upper-division STEM classes would be tough.
com2kid 13y ago
> If math & science is so hard, the real question should be: why the hell is everything else so 'easy'? Look at usage. I majored in CS, minored in Mathematics, yet as a programmer, I do more communicating in English than anything resembling math, and about an even amount communicating ideas and coding. Growing up, everyday we speak, talk, write. We live history all around us, we see TV specials about WW2, parents and grandparents tell stories about their childhoods. When is math truly used? On occasion, sure, it serves its purpose quite well. But in day to day life? One does not go around taking the derivative of arbitrary objects, but one may very well be called upon to present a persuasive argument or find a moment to whisper poetry in a loved one's ear. It may very well be a case that our daily living does more to reinforce materials learned aside from the math and sciences.
- selimthegrim 13y ago
  Real research mathematics, that which can't be reduced to mental calculation, requires a command of verbal reasoning well beyond what it takes to win at analogies on the SAT (as does theoretical physics). It can also add to your ability to express yourself. I very concisely was able to get my feelings about Mitt Romney across to my math major roommate when I stated that Romney's ilk believed the well ordering principle could proven to apply to people and not just integers. Another less esoteric example is this James Fallows article about the Carter administration http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1979/05/the-passionless-presidency/308516/ http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1979/05/the-pass... (ctrl-F cube root) This was particularly chuckleworthy because I had just encountered a bug in the TI calculator system (I used to work for a TI subcontractor) where to make the cube root of -1 just be -1 (ie always taking the principal branch for the unwashed masses of eighth graders who knew nothing of complex numbers), TI decided to have negative rational numbers with an odd denominator have odd roots go to -1, and even denominators numerically evaluate. (Try graphing the cube root function on your TI and see the function go all over the place for negative values, this is why) When we complained that it was screwing up the numerics we were trying to code, we were told "it's a bug, not a feature". I referred to it as "circumcising the cube root" in a drunken email to said math major.
- eli_gottlieb 13y ago
  or find a moment to whisper poetry in a loved one's ear. You mean people actually do that? I thought we all just whispered ridiculous jokes and stupid memes to our loved ones and then pretended to the outside world it was fine poetry.
parennoob 13y ago
I work with people who mostly grew up and did their schooling (including college) in the US. Apparently even engineering students here are supposed to take a couple of language/other liberal arts style classes. This being the case, I'm not sure why the grammar, sentence construction, and spelling of a lot of people in the States is really bad. I'd definitely be for the theory that English (and possibly other liberal arts subjects) is not taught in even a slightly rigorous way here.
- jlgreco 13y ago
  > I'd definitely be for the theory that English ... is not taught in even a slightly rigorous way here. It isn't. Public schools are haphazard, it is rarely taught well there. It isn't generally included in the sort of language/liberal arts classes that engineering students might be required to take (those are going to be more along the line of literature or creative writing classes). It is probably taught well in catholic schools, if anywhere.
hackinthebochs 13y ago
This is likely an unpopular opinion, but: Math and Science are hard because most people simply aren't wired for high level abstract logical thinking. Teaching Shakespear or physics to a monkey are equally as hard. Teaching Shakespear to a human is much easier because we are wired for that type of reasoning. Most people are not wired for scientific thinking.
- VLM 13y ago
  We have a large media industry focused on indoctrinating people to be entertained by drama, yet fooled for profit thus critical thinking is looked down upon. Any surprise it turns out that way?

by polemic 13y ago

psbp 13y ago

I think the problem is skill related. Most U.S students just don't have the proper foundation in math to do well in physics, engineering, or even bio and chemistry. I don't think majors like philosophy or english are implicitly any easier (I went to a school where they were seemingly pretty difficult majors), but they're much easier in comparison to subjects where you many students lack years of fundamental work.

eshvk 13y ago
I have spent time in educational systems outside the U.S., I don't think it is a U.S. centric problem. Math and the sciences are extremely cumulative, this means that you have to keep at it. That in turn either requires passion or a system much like exists in China/India where you have an entire nation designed to put as much pressure on kids to make sure they get good grades on one silly exam or the other. This shit is hard, which is why not a lot of people survive at it. I don't see how America can move to the Asian system of training without a lot of people here rebelling against that. Maybe an alternative would be to expose kids to the idea that life is actually hard in the real world sooner.
auctiontheory 13y ago
In my experience, it was quite easy to take and even do well in upper-division humanities classes (specifically philosophy) without any lower-division work in the major. Jumping from high school to upper-division STEM classes would be tough.

com2kid 13y ago

> If math & science is so hard, the real question should be: why the hell is everything else so 'easy'? Look at usage. I majored in CS, minored in Mathematics, yet as a programmer, I do more communicating in English than anything resembling math, and about an even amount communicating ideas and coding. Growing up, everyday we speak, talk, write. We live history all around us, we see TV specials about WW2, parents and grandparents tell stories about their childhoods. When is math truly used? On occasion, sure, it serves its purpose quite well. But in day to day life? One does not go around taking the derivative of arbitrary objects, but one may very well be called upon to present a persuasive argument or find a moment to whisper poetry in a loved one's ear. It may very well be a case that our daily living does more to reinforce materials learned aside from the math and sciences.

selimthegrim 13y ago
Real research mathematics, that which can't be reduced to mental calculation, requires a command of verbal reasoning well beyond what it takes to win at analogies on the SAT (as does theoretical physics). It can also add to your ability to express yourself. I very concisely was able to get my feelings about Mitt Romney across to my math major roommate when I stated that Romney's ilk believed the well ordering principle could proven to apply to people and not just integers. Another less esoteric example is this James Fallows article about the Carter administration http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1979/05/the-passionless-presidency/308516/ http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1979/05/the-pass... (ctrl-F cube root) This was particularly chuckleworthy because I had just encountered a bug in the TI calculator system (I used to work for a TI subcontractor) where to make the cube root of -1 just be -1 (ie always taking the principal branch for the unwashed masses of eighth graders who knew nothing of complex numbers), TI decided to have negative rational numbers with an odd denominator have odd roots go to -1, and even denominators numerically evaluate. (Try graphing the cube root function on your TI and see the function go all over the place for negative values, this is why) When we complained that it was screwing up the numerics we were trying to code, we were told "it's a bug, not a feature". I referred to it as "circumcising the cube root" in a drunken email to said math major.
eli_gottlieb 13y ago
or find a moment to whisper poetry in a loved one's ear. You mean people actually do that? I thought we all just whispered ridiculous jokes and stupid memes to our loved ones and then pretended to the outside world it was fine poetry.

parennoob 13y ago

I work with people who mostly grew up and did their schooling (including college) in the US. Apparently even engineering students here are supposed to take a couple of language/other liberal arts style classes. This being the case, I'm not sure why the grammar, sentence construction, and spelling of a lot of people in the States is really bad. I'd definitely be for the theory that English (and possibly other liberal arts subjects) is not taught in even a slightly rigorous way here.

jlgreco 13y ago
> I'd definitely be for the theory that English ... is not taught in even a slightly rigorous way here. It isn't. Public schools are haphazard, it is rarely taught well there. It isn't generally included in the sort of language/liberal arts classes that engineering students might be required to take (those are going to be more along the line of literature or creative writing classes). It is probably taught well in catholic schools, if anywhere.

hackinthebochs 13y ago

This is likely an unpopular opinion, but: Math and Science are hard because most people simply aren't wired for high level abstract logical thinking. Teaching Shakespear or physics to a monkey are equally as hard. Teaching Shakespear to a human is much easier because we are wired for that type of reasoning. Most people are not wired for scientific thinking.

VLM 13y ago
We have a large media industry focused on indoctrinating people to be entertained by drama, yet fooled for profit thus critical thinking is looked down upon. Any surprise it turns out that way?