8 ms·

I dream of a day when I can walk into an area which offers 'services' and be offered a pricing chart. From hospitals, banks, loan officers, home loans, cars, et

by ambiate 13y ago

I dream of a day when I can walk into an area which offers 'services' and be offered a pricing chart. From hospitals, banks, loan officers, home loans, cars, etc. A cryptic itemized list, such as a mortgage's Good Faith Estimate (GFE), which falls short of describing the items in the list still fails my test. This hope is not for me. Its for the misfortunate who run on impulse and have weak mathematical logic. Many people will nod their heads when you mention simple/compound interest or amortization. They will easily dig themselves into holes and take on the realization far too late in the game. Another favorite which gets thrown in the air: 'Purchase this warranty.' Countless friends and family have worried that their purchase or lack of warranty was a mistake. Asking about said warranty usually results in: 'read the small text in the agreement.' Typically, walking away from the situation completely misinformed by a seller. As I prepare to move out of my apartment, I received an itemized list (hidden among a contract and various other documentation) which in total amounted to $11,500 in charges for potential neglect in leaving the apartment. Simple things on the list: patch holes ($80/hole), steam clean carpet with receipt ($500/room), replace drip pan ($200), etc. Nothing warns you of the potential threat.

HarryHirsch 13y ago
> I dream of a day when I can walk into an area which offers 'services' and be offered a pricing chart. I don't want to be offered a pricing chart when I have a kidney stone or get violently mugged. When that happens I don't want to have to deal with that sort of thing. The free market in medicine is plain weird. Everyone needs the doctor on occasion, and everyone needs tyres on their car. Both things are pretty standardized, medicine is an established science, and tyres just need to have the correct dimensions and speed rating. You show up at the doctor's, and they will treat you according to established procedure, most patients do not have complex illnesses, and you show up at your mechanic, and they will put new tyres on. It's very simple. Yet on TV you see many many more ads for the local hospital or medication for condition X that you see for tyres. How come?
- crusso 13y ago
  The free market in medicine is plain weird Says you. Time and again, Lasik surgery and cosmetic surgeries not covered by insurance or hindered by over-regulation have shown us that transparent pricing and competition work to make those procedures more affordable -- just like these forces work in other markets. The State has perverted the medical market for more than half a century and you're just used to seeing it in its current screwed up state.
  - mikeyouse 13y ago
    Lasik and Cosmetic surgeries are minimally invasive elective procedures that can be researched months ahead of time, it doesn't make much sense to compare them to major surgeries or even severe infections.
    - crusso 13y ago
      Yeah, so is a vasectomy yet when I went in to get a price on a vasectomy from various doctors, none of them could tell me how much one would be despite each doctor's having performed thousands of them. Doctors, hospitals, and insurance companies play these obfuscation games in order to maximize revenues and profitability. Removing unnecessary actors from the equation like employers and making pricing publicly visible would do wonders to reform the system. The fact of the matter is that most surgery isn't emergency surgery. Most procedures can be researched and cost compared. Even for semi-emergencies, illumination of pricing and other vital information would allow better decisions from consumers who at least knew the reputation of hospitals/providers in their area. I don't know how much a banana costs just now, but I know that if I need a really inexpensive one of dubious quality I can go to the super WalMart down the road. If I want a super fresh one that's probably more expensive, I can go to Whole Foods. If I want a "good enough" mid-price one, I can go to Publix.
  - rayiner 13y ago
    I'd look at good old supply and demand before reaching for "over-regulating is distorting the market." Demand for Lasik and cosmetic surgery is much more elastic because they're not life-saving or otherwise necessary procedures. Meanwhile, supply is relatively higher because they're relatively cheap procedures to provide. They can be done in outpatient centers instead of hospitals, usually don't require general anesthesia, etc.
- possibilistic 13y ago
  > Yet on TV you see many many more ads for the local hospital or medication for condition X that you see for tyres. How come? Tires are a simple, well-known product, whereas medicine is not. Drug discovery happens to be a billion dollar process that often results in failure. All of the low-hanging fruit have been taken, and the remaining solutions all require intense research. Though a compound or antibody or whatever might be cheap to replicate once elucidated, you still have to pay the price for the process. Marketing then directs dollars to product. Drugs often target a very specific healthcare niche, which requires massive education campaigns. Everybody knows that they need tires. Not everybody knows about the existence of a novel drug that solves a medical problem that only a subset of the population encounters.
  - wtvanhest 13y ago
    More importantly, tires are low margin products, newly patented drugs are extremely high margin products. The higher the margin a product is, the more valuable it is to market.
- Afforess 13y ago
  I hear this complaint often, but it's rather short-sighted. The majority of medical procedures are not 'critical' operations, as in dealing with unexpected and urgent medical conditions (car accident injury, broken bones, gunshot wounds). Most are scheduled operations planned days, or weeks in advance. These operations are the ones being targeted for shopping around for the best price. The unexpected, extreme injuries are why people need to have a high-deductible insurance policy, to cover such cases.
- drawkbox 13y ago
  I like prices before the service, even health. I think the not knowing the price aspect keeps many people from services they need and makes people do services they might not need based on not knowing the price. To live in a capitalist society and accept a service without knowing the cost is a bit scary and stressful. Yes it is your health and must be paid attention but so is maintenance on your house and vehicles and you'd never agree to some service on your house or vehicle for its health without knowing the price. You want at least an estimate before going through with it with that provider. Contractors for repairs around the house as an example, they vary in quality and price, it is better to make a smart decision than one that is brash and payment is determined after the fact. Granted health costs are harder to predict and extremely important but the added stress of not knowing the cost I think is actually bad for health.
- lostlogin 13y ago
  This must a a US thing - I have never seen an advert on TV for a healthcare clinic of any sort that I can recall. I saw a poster at a cinema recently for a medical clinic, which I remember as it was so unusual.
  - refurb 13y ago
    They are actually quite common in the US. You'll often drive by billboards on the freeway where hospitals claim "No more than a 30 min wait in our emergency rooms!" I personally think it's a good thing.
    - sseveran 13y ago
      Its also quite common in Hong Kong.
- rthomas6 13y ago
  I see commercials for tires all the time. Michelin, Goodyear, and Firestone, all saying how their tire is the best. I also see a lot of commercials for places like Aamco, National Tire and Battery, and Just Brakes, saying they have the best prices for tires.
MattBearman 13y ago
Wow, this (along with the whole health care thing) makes me glad I live in the UK. Here renting property is very well regulated, you put down a security deposit when you move in (usually 1.5 months rent) and then any charges like this are taken from that. The best part is the security deposit legally has to be left with a third party (DPS), and then if the land lord wants to keep any of it, they have to go through the DPS, and show proof of damage and reasonable charges. On the other hand, the weather here makes me wish I lived in the US :)
- thoughtpalette 13y ago
  That is the standard in the Chicago, IL area as well and coincides from what I've heard of from friends around the states.
- DavidAdams 13y ago
  The shenanigans the commenter is outlining is probably an attempt to make sure that the landlord can ensure that there will be enough minor charges at move-out to enable them to keep the entire security deposit. It's shady and probably wouldn't hold up in court, but most renters wouldn't fight it and would just forfeit their deposit.
  - ambiate 13y ago
    I had a landlord in Wisconsin which kept the deposit and charged an extra $200 (for weathering a high traffic area of the carpet). My current landlord is in Texas. My landlords from Mississippi were much shadier and would shame your reputation just for moving out if anyone called.
- lawnchair_larry 13y ago
  It's a relatively new trend in the US for corporate owned rental properties to use essentially fraudulent nickel-and-diming on the damage deposit as an additional revenue stream. If you move to the US and have to rent, find a private owner renting their condo or similar. Never live in an "apartment community" with a corporate owner.
roc 13y ago
> "As I prepare to move out of my apartment, I received an itemized list (hidden among a contract and various other documentation) " You yourself have trouble with our fine-print-society and yet you still write off the missteps of others who fall into similarly-shaped potholes as a result of their running on impulse or having weak mathematical logic?
rubberband 13y ago
I'm curious as to why you singled out the GFE as "falling short". I don't necessarily disagree with you, but between your GFE, TIL and a handful of other things, you "should" be provided with a decent high level overview of your mortgage. There's certainly room for improvement, but it always seemed leaps and bounds better than, say, an itemized hospital bill.
deelowe 13y ago
While I agree with you on the medical, a GFE is exactly what you are asking for. Mortgages are complicated, so there's a lot of credits and debts involved. Just because you don't understand the terms doesn't mean they shouldn't be noted. The GFE(and HUD) are thankfully the two things that are absolutely legally binding and can be counted on for being a correct representation of everything.

by ambiate 13y ago

HarryHirsch 13y ago

> I dream of a day when I can walk into an area which offers 'services' and be offered a pricing chart. I don't want to be offered a pricing chart when I have a kidney stone or get violently mugged. When that happens I don't want to have to deal with that sort of thing. The free market in medicine is plain weird. Everyone needs the doctor on occasion, and everyone needs tyres on their car. Both things are pretty standardized, medicine is an established science, and tyres just need to have the correct dimensions and speed rating. You show up at the doctor's, and they will treat you according to established procedure, most patients do not have complex illnesses, and you show up at your mechanic, and they will put new tyres on. It's very simple. Yet on TV you see many many more ads for the local hospital or medication for condition X that you see for tyres. How come?

crusso 13y ago
The free market in medicine is plain weird Says you. Time and again, Lasik surgery and cosmetic surgeries not covered by insurance or hindered by over-regulation have shown us that transparent pricing and competition work to make those procedures more affordable -- just like these forces work in other markets. The State has perverted the medical market for more than half a century and you're just used to seeing it in its current screwed up state.
- mikeyouse 13y ago
  Lasik and Cosmetic surgeries are minimally invasive elective procedures that can be researched months ahead of time, it doesn't make much sense to compare them to major surgeries or even severe infections.
  - crusso 13y ago
    Yeah, so is a vasectomy yet when I went in to get a price on a vasectomy from various doctors, none of them could tell me how much one would be despite each doctor's having performed thousands of them. Doctors, hospitals, and insurance companies play these obfuscation games in order to maximize revenues and profitability. Removing unnecessary actors from the equation like employers and making pricing publicly visible would do wonders to reform the system. The fact of the matter is that most surgery isn't emergency surgery. Most procedures can be researched and cost compared. Even for semi-emergencies, illumination of pricing and other vital information would allow better decisions from consumers who at least knew the reputation of hospitals/providers in their area. I don't know how much a banana costs just now, but I know that if I need a really inexpensive one of dubious quality I can go to the super WalMart down the road. If I want a super fresh one that's probably more expensive, I can go to Whole Foods. If I want a "good enough" mid-price one, I can go to Publix.
- rayiner 13y ago
  I'd look at good old supply and demand before reaching for "over-regulating is distorting the market." Demand for Lasik and cosmetic surgery is much more elastic because they're not life-saving or otherwise necessary procedures. Meanwhile, supply is relatively higher because they're relatively cheap procedures to provide. They can be done in outpatient centers instead of hospitals, usually don't require general anesthesia, etc.
possibilistic 13y ago
> Yet on TV you see many many more ads for the local hospital or medication for condition X that you see for tyres. How come? Tires are a simple, well-known product, whereas medicine is not. Drug discovery happens to be a billion dollar process that often results in failure. All of the low-hanging fruit have been taken, and the remaining solutions all require intense research. Though a compound or antibody or whatever might be cheap to replicate once elucidated, you still have to pay the price for the process. Marketing then directs dollars to product. Drugs often target a very specific healthcare niche, which requires massive education campaigns. Everybody knows that they need tires. Not everybody knows about the existence of a novel drug that solves a medical problem that only a subset of the population encounters.
- wtvanhest 13y ago
  More importantly, tires are low margin products, newly patented drugs are extremely high margin products. The higher the margin a product is, the more valuable it is to market.
Afforess 13y ago
I hear this complaint often, but it's rather short-sighted. The majority of medical procedures are not 'critical' operations, as in dealing with unexpected and urgent medical conditions (car accident injury, broken bones, gunshot wounds). Most are scheduled operations planned days, or weeks in advance. These operations are the ones being targeted for shopping around for the best price. The unexpected, extreme injuries are why people need to have a high-deductible insurance policy, to cover such cases.
drawkbox 13y ago
I like prices before the service, even health. I think the not knowing the price aspect keeps many people from services they need and makes people do services they might not need based on not knowing the price. To live in a capitalist society and accept a service without knowing the cost is a bit scary and stressful. Yes it is your health and must be paid attention but so is maintenance on your house and vehicles and you'd never agree to some service on your house or vehicle for its health without knowing the price. You want at least an estimate before going through with it with that provider. Contractors for repairs around the house as an example, they vary in quality and price, it is better to make a smart decision than one that is brash and payment is determined after the fact. Granted health costs are harder to predict and extremely important but the added stress of not knowing the cost I think is actually bad for health.
lostlogin 13y ago
This must a a US thing - I have never seen an advert on TV for a healthcare clinic of any sort that I can recall. I saw a poster at a cinema recently for a medical clinic, which I remember as it was so unusual.
- refurb 13y ago
  They are actually quite common in the US. You'll often drive by billboards on the freeway where hospitals claim "No more than a 30 min wait in our emergency rooms!" I personally think it's a good thing.
  - sseveran 13y ago
    Its also quite common in Hong Kong.
rthomas6 13y ago
I see commercials for tires all the time. Michelin, Goodyear, and Firestone, all saying how their tire is the best. I also see a lot of commercials for places like Aamco, National Tire and Battery, and Just Brakes, saying they have the best prices for tires.

MattBearman 13y ago

Wow, this (along with the whole health care thing) makes me glad I live in the UK. Here renting property is very well regulated, you put down a security deposit when you move in (usually 1.5 months rent) and then any charges like this are taken from that. The best part is the security deposit legally has to be left with a third party (DPS), and then if the land lord wants to keep any of it, they have to go through the DPS, and show proof of damage and reasonable charges. On the other hand, the weather here makes me wish I lived in the US :)

thoughtpalette 13y ago
That is the standard in the Chicago, IL area as well and coincides from what I've heard of from friends around the states.
DavidAdams 13y ago
The shenanigans the commenter is outlining is probably an attempt to make sure that the landlord can ensure that there will be enough minor charges at move-out to enable them to keep the entire security deposit. It's shady and probably wouldn't hold up in court, but most renters wouldn't fight it and would just forfeit their deposit.
- ambiate 13y ago
  I had a landlord in Wisconsin which kept the deposit and charged an extra $200 (for weathering a high traffic area of the carpet). My current landlord is in Texas. My landlords from Mississippi were much shadier and would shame your reputation just for moving out if anyone called.
lawnchair_larry 13y ago
It's a relatively new trend in the US for corporate owned rental properties to use essentially fraudulent nickel-and-diming on the damage deposit as an additional revenue stream. If you move to the US and have to rent, find a private owner renting their condo or similar. Never live in an "apartment community" with a corporate owner.

roc 13y ago

> "As I prepare to move out of my apartment, I received an itemized list (hidden among a contract and various other documentation) " You yourself have trouble with our fine-print-society and yet you still write off the missteps of others who fall into similarly-shaped potholes as a result of their running on impulse or having weak mathematical logic?

rubberband 13y ago

I'm curious as to why you singled out the GFE as "falling short". I don't necessarily disagree with you, but between your GFE, TIL and a handful of other things, you "should" be provided with a decent high level overview of your mortgage. There's certainly room for improvement, but it always seemed leaps and bounds better than, say, an itemized hospital bill.

deelowe 13y ago

While I agree with you on the medical, a GFE is exactly what you are asking for. Mortgages are complicated, so there's a lot of credits and debts involved. Just because you don't understand the terms doesn't mean they shouldn't be noted. The GFE(and HUD) are thankfully the two things that are absolutely legally binding and can be counted on for being a correct representation of everything.