9 ms·

> to help remind people to put guns into checked baggage instead I have to wonder how many of the firearms they stop are just regular law-abiding concealed han

by nthj 13y ago

> to help remind people to put guns into checked baggage instead I have to wonder how many of the firearms they stop are just regular law-abiding concealed handgun license bearers who, in their rush to get to the airport, forgot that they keep a loaded firearm in their purse, briefcase, or backpack. Since the penalty is a $7,500 fine and not 20 years in jail, I have to presume this scenario is far more common "malicious guy planned to hijack plane." This would be a very easy statistic to publish, too (only 10% of the people we stopped were even licensed to carry a handgun!), but since I haven't seen that statistic advertised, I would presume they find most of the stopped citizens to be guilty only of carelessness.

freehunter 13y ago
To be fair, they're not regular law-abiding citizens if they're bringing a loaded gun into an airport and attempting to get on a plane with it. As much as I would love to see the TSA disappear tomorrow, some might argue that carelessness should be punished more often than it actually is...
- nthj 13y ago
  Sure, happy to be pedantic. I meant "regular, non-malicious, normally law-abiding citizens, obviously in violation of the law this time, but not intentionally, because they got stressed out trying to make their flight on time and overlooked a (admittedly very serious) item in their bag." There are so many laws on the books these days I'm sure even my Grandma could be locked up for a couple decades.
  - freehunter 13y ago
    I actually wasn't trying to be overly pedantic. Bringing a loaded weapon into an airport, a school, a courthouse, etc is going above and beyond "whoops". I could overlook running through a four-way yield intersection. I could overlook tossing my lit cigarette out the window when I'm finished with it. I could overlook parking too close to a stop sign. 999,999 times out of a million, nothing will go wrong. But that one time it does go wrong, people die. Yeah, there's a thousand laws on the books that everyone breaks and there's no real repercussions even in the worst case scenario. Bringing a loaded weapon into a weapon-free zone is not one of them. I say this as a holder of a concealed carry permit. You might as well be yelling "fire" in a theater if you drop your purse and that gun falls out.
    - jlgreco 13y ago
      These people are not overlooked, they are fined up to several thousand dollars. Without mens rea or any realized harm (potential? sure, but no realized), that is plenty.
jlgreco 13y ago
> (only 10% of the people we stopped were even licensed to carry a handgun!) That would only be a meaningful statement in some states.
- nthj 13y ago
  If by "some", you mean "most", and if by "most", you mean "all but one." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry_in_the_United_...
  - qwerty_asdf 13y ago
    From your link: Among U.S. states, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Vermont and Wyoming allow residents to carry a concealed firearm without a permit. These states also allow the open carry of a handgun without a permit. I count five.
    - nthj 13y ago
      Ah—my misunderstanding/miscommunication. In Alaska, for example, it wouldn't be against the law to normally carry a firearm, and thus it would be entirely believable that someone left a firearm in their backpack. In California, it wouldn't be: if the guy doesn't have a concealed handgun license, he wasn't able to legally carry the gun outside of his house, much less into the airport. The "I got careless" argument makes way less sense.
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    Several states have permissive open carry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:OpenCarryUnited_States.png http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:OpenCarryUnited_States.png Even if they were concealed carrying it without a license, the statistic would be "10% of those caught not in Vermont did not have a license to carry the gun in the manner that they were carrying it".
markbao 13y ago
I feel like I am the only person on this thread that thinks the scenario that someone just happened to "damn, went to the airport and forgot that I had a gun in my bag while going through airport security" is pretty far-fetched. A pocketknife from a fishing trip? Understandable. Being forgetful about having a gun in your bag? While going through airport security to get on an airplane? Not so much.
- OvidNaso 13y ago
  Is your opinion then that 20-30 people a week intend on using a weapon on board a plane?
  - scrumper 13y ago
    I don't know what their point was, but mine would be this: those 20-30 people a week shouldn't be allowed to keep their guns. I support their right to ownership and carry, but they really should lose that right (or at least that firearm and a substantial sum of money) if they're so careless as to forget that they have a lethal device stuffed in a bag that they've just packed for a flight. That kind of stupidity and negligence gives careful gun owners a bad name. Ownership of a firearm requires a certain level of responsibility. A concealed carry permit increases that quotient of responsibility substantially. In my mind, forgetting where you put your gun is basically inexcusable. There may well be the odd, vanishingly unlikely circumstance where one could plausibly excuse unintentionally carrying a firearm through airport security, but I can't think of it. My bet is that most of these idiots knew they had their guns with them but thought they'd try it on anyway, reasoning that if they went home to drop it off, they'd miss their flight.
  - markbao 13y ago
    I suppose that "far-fetched" isn't the right word to use, rather that it's absurd that that many people per week forget that they have a potentially loaded gun in their bag and are carrying it into a high-security area where they know they should specifically not have guns. If we assume that those people don't have any malintent, then they're just careless. And if they are that careless, they should get their firearms confiscated from them and they should be fined.
doktrin 13y ago
> I have to wonder how many of the firearms they stop are just regular law-abiding concealed handgun license bearers who, in their rush to get to the airport, forgot that they keep a loaded firearm in their purse, briefcase, or backpack. I'm sure this accounts for the majority of weapon seizures, but this doesn't make them invalid. I would not be comfortable with improperly stored loaded weapons bouncing around an overhead storage bin.
- hga 13y ago
  Well, you might not be comfortable, but you are safe. For all the usual reasons, including of course the plaintiff's bar, all handguns of modern design (and most not so modern) are safe when dropped loaded. It is a bit too easy to drop something you're holding in your hands onto a hard surface....
  - doktrin 13y ago
    We're not talking about a simple hard surface. We're talking about a handgun inside a bag filled with other miscellaneous items which is then jostled and pushed around. You could argue the chance of an accidental discharge is low, but it's certainly meaningful enough to warrant caution. All the more so given the consequences of accidental discharge inside an airplane cabin.
    - hga 13y ago
      All standard carry models I'm familiar with either have a hard trigger pull, or have a manual safety. I'll grant you that someone carrying the latter had better have it in a holster or some arrangement where the safety can't get pushed off ... but then again, if this is how they normally carry, e.g. a normal purse, if they don't do that they're always in danger of a negligent discharge. And there are modified guns out there with unreasonably light trigger pulls, but the same considerations above for protecting a manual safety hold. So I'd say "very low", while agreeing that it's not zero. BTW, it's almost never an accidental discharge, almost always a negligent one, and in this hypothetical case most certainly so.
DanBC 13y ago
> This would be a very easy statistic to publish, too (only 10% of the people we stopped were even licensed to carry a handgun!) As I understand it TSA only do the finding of the guns and it's local law enforcement who does the rest. So TSA have no idea about who's allowed to carry the weapon or not. I agree that these are just careless or forgetful people (or perhaps people making a point about their right to etc etc) and not terrorists. > This would be a very easy statistic to publish, too (only 10% of the people we stopped were even licensed to carry a handgun!), but since I haven't seen that statistic advertised, I would presume they find most of the stopped citizens to be guilty only of carelessness. I really hope that careless people are not being fined, or if they are it's only small. I also really hope that someone, somewhere, with a solid stats background, is collecting and studying the numbers and giving advice to law makers. Because spending all that time and money on something that's pointless would be very very frustrating. I want to know what the future-people will say about it. What will the 2063 tenth-graders write about it?
- bathat 13y ago
  > As I understand it TSA only do the finding of the guns and it's local law enforcement who does the rest. So TSA have no idea about who's allowed to carry the weapon or not. I have no idea if this is true, but let's assume it is. So what? How does that prevent TSA's Office of Public Relations from following up with law enforcement after the fact? Is there some law of which I'm unaware that prevents the TSA from asking the local PD for statistics about this sort of thing?
  - DanBC 13y ago
    Put like that there's nothing stopping them. But I was replying to a comment saying that it would be a very easy statistic to publish. Co-ordinating with a variety of different law enforcement departments, in different states, with different laws, makes is a bit less easy. > I have no idea if this is true, but let's assume it is. It's something that TSA claim. I posted the URL and a quote earlier in the thread. Here it is again. (http://blog.tsa.gov/2013/07/tsa-week-in-review-30-firearms.html http://blog.tsa.gov/2013/07/tsa-week-in-review-30-firearms.h...) > Just because we find a prohibited item on an individual does not mean they had bad intentions, that's for the law enforcement officer to decide. In many cases, people simply forgot they had these items.
walshemj 13y ago
Sorry if you own a weapon it behooves you to know where it is at all times - people that dumb should have their license revoked.
jacquesm 13y ago
If you forget you're carrying a loaded firearm you shouldn't be carrying one in the first place. Such responsibility should not be dealt with lightly, if you're not aware that you have it you are also not aware when you lose it.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- jlgreco 13y ago
  Is that a special case for firearms, or do you think the same of pocket knives?
  - freehunter 13y ago
    A pocket knife tends not to have the chance that it could plunge itself into someone's heart from a distance. Hurting someone with a knife is a pretty active offense, especially a pocket knife. Guns can and do go off without a human intentionally pulling the trigger.
    - jlgreco 13y ago
      My point is that people accidentally forget to not bring / forget to bring things that are vitally important with no malicious intent. I've forgotten to bring my wallet/keys with me when I leave my place, I've forgotten to wear my glasses before driving somewhere, I've forgotten to turn on my headlights while driving (in a well lit city, to my credit). People accidentally carry pocket knives through metal detectors. None of these thing are something that happens to most people often, it could happen just once after years of correct routine. Theses absent-minded mishaps are just human nature. They are of course going to occasionally happen with guns too. I'm sure there are more than a few cops out there who accidentally walked through metal detectors while wearing their service pistol.
      - hga 13y ago
        Or forget them in the restroom, try e.g. this search https://www.google.com/search?q=cop+restroom+or+bathroom+leave+gun https://www.google.com/search?q=cop+restroom+or+bathroom+lea..., it happens quite frequently.

by nthj 13y ago

freehunter 13y ago

To be fair, they're not regular law-abiding citizens if they're bringing a loaded gun into an airport and attempting to get on a plane with it. As much as I would love to see the TSA disappear tomorrow, some might argue that carelessness should be punished more often than it actually is...

nthj 13y ago
Sure, happy to be pedantic. I meant "regular, non-malicious, normally law-abiding citizens, obviously in violation of the law this time, but not intentionally, because they got stressed out trying to make their flight on time and overlooked a (admittedly very serious) item in their bag." There are so many laws on the books these days I'm sure even my Grandma could be locked up for a couple decades.
- freehunter 13y ago
  I actually wasn't trying to be overly pedantic. Bringing a loaded weapon into an airport, a school, a courthouse, etc is going above and beyond "whoops". I could overlook running through a four-way yield intersection. I could overlook tossing my lit cigarette out the window when I'm finished with it. I could overlook parking too close to a stop sign. 999,999 times out of a million, nothing will go wrong. But that one time it does go wrong, people die. Yeah, there's a thousand laws on the books that everyone breaks and there's no real repercussions even in the worst case scenario. Bringing a loaded weapon into a weapon-free zone is not one of them. I say this as a holder of a concealed carry permit. You might as well be yelling "fire" in a theater if you drop your purse and that gun falls out.
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    These people are not overlooked, they are fined up to several thousand dollars. Without mens rea or any realized harm (potential? sure, but no realized), that is plenty.

jlgreco 13y ago

> (only 10% of the people we stopped were even licensed to carry a handgun!) That would only be a meaningful statement in some states.

nthj 13y ago
If by "some", you mean "most", and if by "most", you mean "all but one." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry_in_the_United_...
- qwerty_asdf 13y ago
  From your link: Among U.S. states, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Vermont and Wyoming allow residents to carry a concealed firearm without a permit. These states also allow the open carry of a handgun without a permit. I count five.
  - nthj 13y ago
    Ah—my misunderstanding/miscommunication. In Alaska, for example, it wouldn't be against the law to normally carry a firearm, and thus it would be entirely believable that someone left a firearm in their backpack. In California, it wouldn't be: if the guy doesn't have a concealed handgun license, he wasn't able to legally carry the gun outside of his house, much less into the airport. The "I got careless" argument makes way less sense.
- jlgreco 13y ago
  Several states have permissive open carry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:OpenCarryUnited_States.png http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:OpenCarryUnited_States.png Even if they were concealed carrying it without a license, the statistic would be "10% of those caught not in Vermont did not have a license to carry the gun in the manner that they were carrying it".

markbao 13y ago

I feel like I am the only person on this thread that thinks the scenario that someone just happened to "damn, went to the airport and forgot that I had a gun in my bag while going through airport security" is pretty far-fetched. A pocketknife from a fishing trip? Understandable. Being forgetful about having a gun in your bag? While going through airport security to get on an airplane? Not so much.

OvidNaso 13y ago
Is your opinion then that 20-30 people a week intend on using a weapon on board a plane?
- scrumper 13y ago
  I don't know what their point was, but mine would be this: those 20-30 people a week shouldn't be allowed to keep their guns. I support their right to ownership and carry, but they really should lose that right (or at least that firearm and a substantial sum of money) if they're so careless as to forget that they have a lethal device stuffed in a bag that they've just packed for a flight. That kind of stupidity and negligence gives careful gun owners a bad name. Ownership of a firearm requires a certain level of responsibility. A concealed carry permit increases that quotient of responsibility substantially. In my mind, forgetting where you put your gun is basically inexcusable. There may well be the odd, vanishingly unlikely circumstance where one could plausibly excuse unintentionally carrying a firearm through airport security, but I can't think of it. My bet is that most of these idiots knew they had their guns with them but thought they'd try it on anyway, reasoning that if they went home to drop it off, they'd miss their flight.
- markbao 13y ago
  I suppose that "far-fetched" isn't the right word to use, rather that it's absurd that that many people per week forget that they have a potentially loaded gun in their bag and are carrying it into a high-security area where they know they should specifically not have guns. If we assume that those people don't have any malintent, then they're just careless. And if they are that careless, they should get their firearms confiscated from them and they should be fined.

doktrin 13y ago

> I have to wonder how many of the firearms they stop are just regular law-abiding concealed handgun license bearers who, in their rush to get to the airport, forgot that they keep a loaded firearm in their purse, briefcase, or backpack. I'm sure this accounts for the majority of weapon seizures, but this doesn't make them invalid. I would not be comfortable with improperly stored loaded weapons bouncing around an overhead storage bin.

hga 13y ago
Well, you might not be comfortable, but you are safe. For all the usual reasons, including of course the plaintiff's bar, all handguns of modern design (and most not so modern) are safe when dropped loaded. It is a bit too easy to drop something you're holding in your hands onto a hard surface....
- doktrin 13y ago
  We're not talking about a simple hard surface. We're talking about a handgun inside a bag filled with other miscellaneous items which is then jostled and pushed around. You could argue the chance of an accidental discharge is low, but it's certainly meaningful enough to warrant caution. All the more so given the consequences of accidental discharge inside an airplane cabin.
  - hga 13y ago
    All standard carry models I'm familiar with either have a hard trigger pull, or have a manual safety. I'll grant you that someone carrying the latter had better have it in a holster or some arrangement where the safety can't get pushed off ... but then again, if this is how they normally carry, e.g. a normal purse, if they don't do that they're always in danger of a negligent discharge. And there are modified guns out there with unreasonably light trigger pulls, but the same considerations above for protecting a manual safety hold. So I'd say "very low", while agreeing that it's not zero. BTW, it's almost never an accidental discharge, almost always a negligent one, and in this hypothetical case most certainly so.

DanBC 13y ago

> This would be a very easy statistic to publish, too (only 10% of the people we stopped were even licensed to carry a handgun!) As I understand it TSA only do the finding of the guns and it's local law enforcement who does the rest. So TSA have no idea about who's allowed to carry the weapon or not. I agree that these are just careless or forgetful people (or perhaps people making a point about their right to etc etc) and not terrorists. > This would be a very easy statistic to publish, too (only 10% of the people we stopped were even licensed to carry a handgun!), but since I haven't seen that statistic advertised, I would presume they find most of the stopped citizens to be guilty only of carelessness. I really hope that careless people are not being fined, or if they are it's only small. I also really hope that someone, somewhere, with a solid stats background, is collecting and studying the numbers and giving advice to law makers. Because spending all that time and money on something that's pointless would be very very frustrating. I want to know what the future-people will say about it. What will the 2063 tenth-graders write about it?

bathat 13y ago
> As I understand it TSA only do the finding of the guns and it's local law enforcement who does the rest. So TSA have no idea about who's allowed to carry the weapon or not. I have no idea if this is true, but let's assume it is. So what? How does that prevent TSA's Office of Public Relations from following up with law enforcement after the fact? Is there some law of which I'm unaware that prevents the TSA from asking the local PD for statistics about this sort of thing?
- DanBC 13y ago
  Put like that there's nothing stopping them. But I was replying to a comment saying that it would be a very easy statistic to publish. Co-ordinating with a variety of different law enforcement departments, in different states, with different laws, makes is a bit less easy. > I have no idea if this is true, but let's assume it is. It's something that TSA claim. I posted the URL and a quote earlier in the thread. Here it is again. (http://blog.tsa.gov/2013/07/tsa-week-in-review-30-firearms.html http://blog.tsa.gov/2013/07/tsa-week-in-review-30-firearms.h...) > Just because we find a prohibited item on an individual does not mean they had bad intentions, that's for the law enforcement officer to decide. In many cases, people simply forgot they had these items.

walshemj 13y ago

Sorry if you own a weapon it behooves you to know where it is at all times - people that dumb should have their license revoked.

jacquesm 13y ago

If you forget you're carrying a loaded firearm you shouldn't be carrying one in the first place. Such responsibility should not be dealt with lightly, if you're not aware that you have it you are also not aware when you lose it.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
jlgreco 13y ago
Is that a special case for firearms, or do you think the same of pocket knives?
- freehunter 13y ago
  A pocket knife tends not to have the chance that it could plunge itself into someone's heart from a distance. Hurting someone with a knife is a pretty active offense, especially a pocket knife. Guns can and do go off without a human intentionally pulling the trigger.
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    My point is that people accidentally forget to not bring / forget to bring things that are vitally important with no malicious intent. I've forgotten to bring my wallet/keys with me when I leave my place, I've forgotten to wear my glasses before driving somewhere, I've forgotten to turn on my headlights while driving (in a well lit city, to my credit). People accidentally carry pocket knives through metal detectors. None of these thing are something that happens to most people often, it could happen just once after years of correct routine. Theses absent-minded mishaps are just human nature. They are of course going to occasionally happen with guns too. I'm sure there are more than a few cops out there who accidentally walked through metal detectors while wearing their service pistol.
    - hga 13y ago
      Or forget them in the restroom, try e.g. this search https://www.google.com/search?q=cop+restroom+or+bathroom+leave+gun https://www.google.com/search?q=cop+restroom+or+bathroom+lea..., it happens quite frequently.