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Great post, I have also thought quite a bit about the fact that the big issues I spend time considering aren't even on the radar of the majority of developers,

Great post, I have also thought quite a bit about the fact that the big issues I spend time considering aren't even on the radar of the majority of developers, let alone the majority of humans. To answer your question about PHP: I think you're phrasing the question in a way that makes it seem more confusing than it really is. People aren't, generally speaking, drawn to PHP. People code in PHP, and have been coding in PHP, and change is hard, and rationalizing the familiar is easy. Those people then hire other people, and train them to use PHP. I would wager that for a majority of PHP projects, there was never even a 'choose what language to use' phase in the planning. Edit: Another reason that I forgot to mention, which I've seen used several times in practice — PHP developers are replaceable. It's the same argument pointy-haired bosses have been making for using Java for a long time now.

smacktoward 13y ago
> I would wager that for a majority of PHP projects, there was never even a 'choose what language to use' phase in the planning. And if the language you know does what you want, why would there be? Most code is written for business, and in business bringing in a new language is like re-tooling a factory: an expense you take on when you have to, not something you do just because you can.
- nbouscal 13y ago
  That's fine, and I don't think that using PHP for a project is necessarily a bad decision. That said, there are a lot of factors to consider. PHP developers and say, Ruby or Python developers are generally rather different types of people. You'll get a lot more exposure to new ideas and practices from the latter. Unit testing is still a 'weird new thing' in the PHP community, at least where I'm living. If you aren't even considering what language to use, you're going to miss out on a lot of potential benefits. Further, the cost is not on par with re-tooling a factory. Any competent developer can switch languages, especially between very similar languages like PHP/Python/Ruby/Perl, in a pretty quick window. Learning the tools that go along with that language does take some time, but I think that amount of time is generally overstated.
  - oneeyedpigeon 13y ago
    PHP developers and say, Ruby or Python developers are generally rather different types of people Any competent developer can switch languages, especially between very similar languages like PHP/Python/Ruby Those two statements are contradictory. My own stance is that it's rude to stereotype anyone as a 'PHP developer' and infer that, in some way, that means they're 'different' from a Ruby developer.
    - nbouscal 13y ago
      They're not contradictory at all. People who present themselves as PHP developers tend to have a set of common differences from people who present themselves as Ruby or Python developers. That doesn't mean that the competent among both groups are incapable of quickly switching languages. It might mean that the percentage of competent developers is different between the two groups. It's basically the Dead Sea Effect[1], but with languages. Generally better developers will want to use better languages. That shouldn't be surprising. Hopefully we don't have to rehash the argument about the fact that some languages are better than others, since we're on HN and pg has covered that point in great depth. [1] http://brucefwebster.com/2008/04/11/the-wetware-crisis-the-dead-sea-effect/ http://brucefwebster.com/2008/04/11/the-wetware-crisis-the-d...

smacktoward 13y ago

> I would wager that for a majority of PHP projects, there was never even a 'choose what language to use' phase in the planning. And if the language you know does what you want, why would there be? Most code is written for business, and in business bringing in a new language is like re-tooling a factory: an expense you take on when you have to, not something you do just because you can.

nbouscal 13y ago
That's fine, and I don't think that using PHP for a project is necessarily a bad decision. That said, there are a lot of factors to consider. PHP developers and say, Ruby or Python developers are generally rather different types of people. You'll get a lot more exposure to new ideas and practices from the latter. Unit testing is still a 'weird new thing' in the PHP community, at least where I'm living. If you aren't even considering what language to use, you're going to miss out on a lot of potential benefits. Further, the cost is not on par with re-tooling a factory. Any competent developer can switch languages, especially between very similar languages like PHP/Python/Ruby/Perl, in a pretty quick window. Learning the tools that go along with that language does take some time, but I think that amount of time is generally overstated.
- oneeyedpigeon 13y ago
  PHP developers and say, Ruby or Python developers are generally rather different types of people Any competent developer can switch languages, especially between very similar languages like PHP/Python/Ruby Those two statements are contradictory. My own stance is that it's rude to stereotype anyone as a 'PHP developer' and infer that, in some way, that means they're 'different' from a Ruby developer.
  - nbouscal 13y ago
    They're not contradictory at all. People who present themselves as PHP developers tend to have a set of common differences from people who present themselves as Ruby or Python developers. That doesn't mean that the competent among both groups are incapable of quickly switching languages. It might mean that the percentage of competent developers is different between the two groups. It's basically the Dead Sea Effect[1], but with languages. Generally better developers will want to use better languages. That shouldn't be surprising. Hopefully we don't have to rehash the argument about the fact that some languages are better than others, since we're on HN and pg has covered that point in great depth. [1] http://brucefwebster.com/2008/04/11/the-wetware-crisis-the-dead-sea-effect/ http://brucefwebster.com/2008/04/11/the-wetware-crisis-the-d...