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As a fellow EU citizen I completely agree, but am not particularly surprised. And don't feel that ashamed because as citizens we're only tangentially responsib

As a fellow EU citizen I completely agree, but am not particularly surprised. And don't feel that ashamed because as citizens we're only tangentially responsible for the crimes of our governments.

jacquesm 13y ago
As citizens we are 100% responsible for the crimes of our governments.
- moheeb 13y ago
  I had nothing to do with JFK's assassination.
- BjoernKW 13y ago
  Sorry but this simply ain't true. Some European government bodies aren't even elected democratically and even as for those which are you can hardly blame the people for the crimes committed by their governments because most of those are committed behind closed doors. Yes, the majority of the electorate might be gullible or even downright stupid but they're not responsible for the crimes committed in the name of people. Unfortunately, those who really are responsible won't be tried in court because the rule of law doesn't apply to them.
  - kimlelly 13y ago
    It's the Principal-Agent problem: The citizen is the Principal who mandates the Agent (the government) to do something for him. Now, if the Agent fucks up (and I'm sure we all agree that this has been the case worldwide for a very long time now), it becomes the responsibility of the Principal to replace the Agent with the right one. And this applies not just to single politicians but to entire political structures.
- lmm 13y ago
  I didn't vote for them. If I tried violent revolution I'd a) fail b) be killed. How can I be responsible?
  - jacquesm 13y ago
    Let's just say that it is complicated? A slightly longer explanation: by being complacent you (and I) accept responsibility for a fractional share in what is being done in our name. We can't directly change anything about it but every time we vote we have the responsibility to try to improve things as much as possible. If we collectively fail at doing that then we all (not just those that voted for the status quo) are implicated. Choosing to avoid revolution (if you think that is the only option, which I disagree with, for instance, you could start a political party, you could protest, you could strike, you could emigrate and so on) is the same as taking responsibility. Simply abdicating responsibility while still taking part without any push-back against perceived injustice makes you an accomplice, like it or not.
    - lmm 13y ago
      I tried protesting too. It didn't seem to make any difference. I can't see how a new political party would help, there are already some that align with my views (and for whom I voted) but they weren't elected. Starting another one would surely just split their vote further. Striking would only hurt my employer, who seem to have very little to do with it. It's pretty impractical given that no union exists in my industry (and yes, I have tried to form one; no-one seemed interested). Where could I emigrate that doesn't act the same way? I've tried to push back, really I have. I can't see how to change things. It can't be my responsibility when I have no control over it.

As a fellow EU citizen I completely agree, but am not particularly surprised. And don't feel that ashamed because as citizens we're only tangentially responsible for the crimes of our governments.

jacquesm 13y ago

As citizens we are 100% responsible for the crimes of our governments.

moheeb 13y ago
I had nothing to do with JFK's assassination.
BjoernKW 13y ago
Sorry but this simply ain't true. Some European government bodies aren't even elected democratically and even as for those which are you can hardly blame the people for the crimes committed by their governments because most of those are committed behind closed doors. Yes, the majority of the electorate might be gullible or even downright stupid but they're not responsible for the crimes committed in the name of people. Unfortunately, those who really are responsible won't be tried in court because the rule of law doesn't apply to them.
- kimlelly 13y ago
  It's the Principal-Agent problem: The citizen is the Principal who mandates the Agent (the government) to do something for him. Now, if the Agent fucks up (and I'm sure we all agree that this has been the case worldwide for a very long time now), it becomes the responsibility of the Principal to replace the Agent with the right one. And this applies not just to single politicians but to entire political structures.
lmm 13y ago
I didn't vote for them. If I tried violent revolution I'd a) fail b) be killed. How can I be responsible?
- jacquesm 13y ago
  Let's just say that it is complicated? A slightly longer explanation: by being complacent you (and I) accept responsibility for a fractional share in what is being done in our name. We can't directly change anything about it but every time we vote we have the responsibility to try to improve things as much as possible. If we collectively fail at doing that then we all (not just those that voted for the status quo) are implicated. Choosing to avoid revolution (if you think that is the only option, which I disagree with, for instance, you could start a political party, you could protest, you could strike, you could emigrate and so on) is the same as taking responsibility. Simply abdicating responsibility while still taking part without any push-back against perceived injustice makes you an accomplice, like it or not.
  - lmm 13y ago
    I tried protesting too. It didn't seem to make any difference. I can't see how a new political party would help, there are already some that align with my views (and for whom I voted) but they weren't elected. Starting another one would surely just split their vote further. Striking would only hurt my employer, who seem to have very little to do with it. It's pretty impractical given that no union exists in my industry (and yes, I have tried to form one; no-one seemed interested). Where could I emigrate that doesn't act the same way? I've tried to push back, really I have. I can't see how to change things. It can't be my responsibility when I have no control over it.