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I'm just gonna post a previous comment I made on another story regarding this: ---------------------- I wonder why in the Venezuelan government's eyes it's OK

by rafaelm 13y ago

I'm just gonna post a previous comment I made on another story regarding this: ---------------------- I wonder why in the Venezuelan government's eyes it's OK for them to constantly monitor and record every call, email,etc made by their political opponents. I wonder what would happen to an officer of the SEBIN (venezuelan inteligence agency)if they came out with details about how they record every political opponent movement. I wouldn't be surprised if they ended up being just another statistic in the homicide rates. They even had a late night TV show (La Hojilla) where a guy would play back cell phone recordings and emails of the opposition politicians.Live. On TV. He had carte blanche to insult,record anyone he wanted live on TV. Chavez would often call in to the show to congratulate him. They even had a Congress session where they played recordings of the cell phone calls of the most prominent opposition members and their family. And that was live on TV again! Hipocrysy at it's best. --------- These governments are not "fighting for freedom" or for the privacy rights of the people of the world. Many of these governments would sell their mothers to have a PRISM-like system. Venezuela included. EDIT: when I talk about hipocrisy, I'm talking about the venezuelan govt, not Snowden.

nodata 13y ago
I think that's irrelevant. Snowden was interested in revealing that democracies that purport to have a certain set of values actually have a different set of values, and a set of secret non-accountable courts and agencies which can do whatever they like. He's done that now, and now he needs refuge. Yes it would be nice if he had asylum in a country which was more aligned with his beliefs, but guess what - none of those countries turned out to exist, since none of them offered asylum. So what's he meant to do so that he doesn't appear hypocritical?
- pekk 13y ago
  So remember: as long as you don't try to have a certain set of values, these things aren't actually bad. Nixon's mistake wasn't partisan spying, it was only not to say that partisan spying is OK.
- rafaelm 13y ago
  Actually, I'm not referring to Snowden as hypocritical. I'm talking about the Venezuelan government. They keep talking about how the US government violates everyone's rights , when they do the same in Venezuela. I do not judge Snowden at all, he did the right thing and now he needs to find a safe refuge.
grey-area 13y ago
These governments are not "fighting for freedom" or for the privacy rights of the people of the world. Given his published views on surveillance I'm sure Snowden would agree. I highly doubt Venezuela is his first choice for asylum, or anywhere close to it. He doesn't have a lot of choice at this point if he wants to stay out of the reach of the CIA. I doubt he'll stay there long, even if he wants to, but it might be a useful step on the way to another country. I wouldn't be surprised if he eventually volunteers to come back to the US for trial, but he might be waiting until there have been enough disclosures of government wrongdoing, and enough public outrage, that the Obama administration wouldn't dare trying to sequester him and prevent an open trial. Why is fighting for freedom in quotes here? [EDIT] To add a couple of minor points: hipocrysy -> hypocrisy Is this the story you mean? http://boingboing.net/2013/07/08/snowden-and-venezuela-my-biza.html http://boingboing.net/2013/07/08/snowden-and-venezuela-my-bi... It's a good read, and covers in detail the kind of abuse of surveillance they have in Venezuela - what's interesting about this is that it cuts both ways. While you might say it shows Snowden to be hypocritical (though I'd argue he has no good choices here), it is also a perfect illustration of the dangers of pervasive surveillance, and the way it undermines our everyday democracy. It would be so easy to use surveillance to investigate and harass political opponents, and in the US or UK we wouldn't even know it is happening, we'd just read about the embarrassment of a politician over an affair or similar peccadillo, without knowing how the press came to be informed.
- rafaelm 13y ago
  Thanks for that article it's a very interesting read, and I wasn't aware of that case. There are many, many cases like this. And they don't even try to hide it or pass it as leaks. Even recently there was a recording presented by the Information Minister himself, which was taken in somebody's home. This means they had to break in to the house and place bugs. When I say hypocrisy ( thanks for the correction) I mean the Venezuelan government, not Snowden. I support what he did and right now he cannot be picky as to where he goes to be safe. That's the reason why I put "fighting for freedom" in quotes. The Venezuelan govt keeps making statements saying that it's our duty to protect Snowden for the freedom of the world. It's just that in their eyes, those that oppose them don't have right to that freedom.
- 13y ago
smutticus 13y ago
This is why an adversarial world political situation is beneficial for normal citizens. Governments only care about this stuff when they can make others look bad. Venezuela is currently adversarial towards the USA on most fronts because they go against the grain of American neo-liberal imperialism. I don't really care. But why not play them against each other if it means we as citizens get to hear more about the terrible things our countries are doing. Venezuelans certainly get plenty of American propaganda. Let the Americans hear the Venezuelan propaganda. It's all BS in the end but it leads to more transparency in much the same way adversarial governments are designed to work.
- rafaelm 13y ago
  Let's see how long it lasts. Venezuela needs the US to survive. Our economy is in very bad shape right now, constant shortages of basics (certain foods, toilet paper,etc.) and we import pretty much everything we consume. A lot of it comes from the US. Not to mention that the US buys most of our oil.

by rafaelm 13y ago

nodata 13y ago

I think that's irrelevant. Snowden was interested in revealing that democracies that purport to have a certain set of values actually have a different set of values, and a set of secret non-accountable courts and agencies which can do whatever they like. He's done that now, and now he needs refuge. Yes it would be nice if he had asylum in a country which was more aligned with his beliefs, but guess what - none of those countries turned out to exist, since none of them offered asylum. So what's he meant to do so that he doesn't appear hypocritical?

pekk 13y ago
So remember: as long as you don't try to have a certain set of values, these things aren't actually bad. Nixon's mistake wasn't partisan spying, it was only not to say that partisan spying is OK.
rafaelm 13y ago
Actually, I'm not referring to Snowden as hypocritical. I'm talking about the Venezuelan government. They keep talking about how the US government violates everyone's rights , when they do the same in Venezuela. I do not judge Snowden at all, he did the right thing and now he needs to find a safe refuge.

grey-area 13y ago

These governments are not "fighting for freedom" or for the privacy rights of the people of the world. Given his published views on surveillance I'm sure Snowden would agree. I highly doubt Venezuela is his first choice for asylum, or anywhere close to it. He doesn't have a lot of choice at this point if he wants to stay out of the reach of the CIA. I doubt he'll stay there long, even if he wants to, but it might be a useful step on the way to another country. I wouldn't be surprised if he eventually volunteers to come back to the US for trial, but he might be waiting until there have been enough disclosures of government wrongdoing, and enough public outrage, that the Obama administration wouldn't dare trying to sequester him and prevent an open trial. Why is fighting for freedom in quotes here? [EDIT] To add a couple of minor points: hipocrysy -> hypocrisy Is this the story you mean? http://boingboing.net/2013/07/08/snowden-and-venezuela-my-biza.html http://boingboing.net/2013/07/08/snowden-and-venezuela-my-bi... It's a good read, and covers in detail the kind of abuse of surveillance they have in Venezuela - what's interesting about this is that it cuts both ways. While you might say it shows Snowden to be hypocritical (though I'd argue he has no good choices here), it is also a perfect illustration of the dangers of pervasive surveillance, and the way it undermines our everyday democracy. It would be so easy to use surveillance to investigate and harass political opponents, and in the US or UK we wouldn't even know it is happening, we'd just read about the embarrassment of a politician over an affair or similar peccadillo, without knowing how the press came to be informed.

rafaelm 13y ago
Thanks for that article it's a very interesting read, and I wasn't aware of that case. There are many, many cases like this. And they don't even try to hide it or pass it as leaks. Even recently there was a recording presented by the Information Minister himself, which was taken in somebody's home. This means they had to break in to the house and place bugs. When I say hypocrisy ( thanks for the correction) I mean the Venezuelan government, not Snowden. I support what he did and right now he cannot be picky as to where he goes to be safe. That's the reason why I put "fighting for freedom" in quotes. The Venezuelan govt keeps making statements saying that it's our duty to protect Snowden for the freedom of the world. It's just that in their eyes, those that oppose them don't have right to that freedom.
13y ago

smutticus 13y ago

This is why an adversarial world political situation is beneficial for normal citizens. Governments only care about this stuff when they can make others look bad. Venezuela is currently adversarial towards the USA on most fronts because they go against the grain of American neo-liberal imperialism. I don't really care. But why not play them against each other if it means we as citizens get to hear more about the terrible things our countries are doing. Venezuelans certainly get plenty of American propaganda. Let the Americans hear the Venezuelan propaganda. It's all BS in the end but it leads to more transparency in much the same way adversarial governments are designed to work.

rafaelm 13y ago
Let's see how long it lasts. Venezuela needs the US to survive. Our economy is in very bad shape right now, constant shortages of basics (certain foods, toilet paper,etc.) and we import pretty much everything we consume. A lot of it comes from the US. Not to mention that the US buys most of our oil.