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OT: But I'm curious why the article has to define the countries who offered asylum as leftist: > "...the leftist governments of Venezuela, Bolivia and Nicaragu

OT: But I'm curious why the article has to define the countries who offered asylum as leftist: > "...the leftist governments of Venezuela, Bolivia and Nicaragua...." This implies the asylum was extended because they are leftist as appose to other reasons, such as these countries felt rebuffed by US for forcing down the flight of the Bolivian president, or purely on humanitarian or other reasons.

bobwaycott 13y ago
By OT, do you mean on or off? I read your question as very much on topic, because the fact that they are leftist governments is going to be played out through the media to disparage and discredit Snowden through guilt by association tactics that focus entirely on the nature of the government(s) offering asylum. We've already seen this happening in the US media in response to the list of countries to whom Snowden has submitted asylum applications.
- sspiff 13y ago
  Guilty of being leftist? Is this a crime in the US? Does being known as a "leftist" cause you to be shunned or looked down upon? Does leftist mean the same as in Europe? (We generally call them socialists, but socialism is not a dirty word or concept in Europe, where as is associated with oppressive communist regimes of the cold war in the US.)
  - AlisdairSH 13y ago
    Yes. Leftist, socialist, and most of the related terms have been co-opted by the political right and now carry a negative connotation in the US.
    - mpyne 13y ago
      I don't think it helped that leftist organizations in the U.S. such as Weather Underground turned violent. An offshoot of WUO later murdered people to rob a Brinks truck to try to fund further violence. Using violence to make your point has been a good way to get that point tainted in the minds of most of the U.S., especially after the Atlanta Olympic bombings, 9/11, etc. Liberal and socialist have also started to take on a negative connotation, but not as bad as 'leftist'. And of course it bears keeping in mind that many of those who oppose NSA surveilliance on principled grounds also oppose any type of leftist/socialist government by the same principles.
kghose 13y ago
To me "leftist" has certain idealogical connotations, as in trying out a particular system of government that emphasizes strong and omni-present governmental control (like the USSR, for example). In my opinion the countries listed are not leftist, they are simply very, very corrupt with very poor law and order and poor government accountability and democratic in name only. I don't think they are "leftist"; they are just very corrupt and the majority of people are powerless to change it because criminal and military elements are opposing them.
- _delirium 13y ago
  a particular system of government that emphasizes strong and omni-present governmental control That's just "authoritarian", which isn't really limited to a specific place on the left-right spectrum. You can have left-wing governments based on strong state control and security services (USSR, GDR, Cuba), as well as right-wing ones based on the same (Francoist Spain, Pinochet-era Chile, Iran, apartheid South Africa).
- smutticus 13y ago
  Your definition of 'left' and 'right' in politics is quite simply just wrong. Both left and right can descend into state control just as easily. Fascism, for example, is a far-right ideology. I also don't know why you think Venezuela is less democratic then many other N Hemispheric countries. But having no comparison with which to judge I don't know how corrupt a country needs to be in order to register as 'very, very corrupt' on your radar.
  - bosstwizz 13y ago
    relevant: http://www.transparency.org/country#VEN http://www.transparency.org/country#VEN Corruption perceptions index score: 19/100 (100 = least corrupt) World rank: 165/176
  - Kurtz79 13y ago
    To his credit, he did not say that all ideologies where heavy government presence is prominent are left-inspired. He said that the word "leftist" implies certain characteristics, among them heavy government presence. I struggle to think of a real-life example where this is not the case.
pekk 13y ago
These are all countries where 'Yankee' is a bad word and 'socialism' is a good one. This isn't subjective, it is amply documented.
znowi 13y ago
"Leftist" is one of more respectable terms that those countries have been called by the western media :)

bobwaycott 13y ago

By OT, do you mean on or off? I read your question as very much on topic, because the fact that they are leftist governments is going to be played out through the media to disparage and discredit Snowden through guilt by association tactics that focus entirely on the nature of the government(s) offering asylum. We've already seen this happening in the US media in response to the list of countries to whom Snowden has submitted asylum applications.

sspiff 13y ago
Guilty of being leftist? Is this a crime in the US? Does being known as a "leftist" cause you to be shunned or looked down upon? Does leftist mean the same as in Europe? (We generally call them socialists, but socialism is not a dirty word or concept in Europe, where as is associated with oppressive communist regimes of the cold war in the US.)
- AlisdairSH 13y ago
  Yes. Leftist, socialist, and most of the related terms have been co-opted by the political right and now carry a negative connotation in the US.
  - mpyne 13y ago
    I don't think it helped that leftist organizations in the U.S. such as Weather Underground turned violent. An offshoot of WUO later murdered people to rob a Brinks truck to try to fund further violence. Using violence to make your point has been a good way to get that point tainted in the minds of most of the U.S., especially after the Atlanta Olympic bombings, 9/11, etc. Liberal and socialist have also started to take on a negative connotation, but not as bad as 'leftist'. And of course it bears keeping in mind that many of those who oppose NSA surveilliance on principled grounds also oppose any type of leftist/socialist government by the same principles.

kghose 13y ago

To me "leftist" has certain idealogical connotations, as in trying out a particular system of government that emphasizes strong and omni-present governmental control (like the USSR, for example). In my opinion the countries listed are not leftist, they are simply very, very corrupt with very poor law and order and poor government accountability and democratic in name only. I don't think they are "leftist"; they are just very corrupt and the majority of people are powerless to change it because criminal and military elements are opposing them.

_delirium 13y ago
a particular system of government that emphasizes strong and omni-present governmental control That's just "authoritarian", which isn't really limited to a specific place on the left-right spectrum. You can have left-wing governments based on strong state control and security services (USSR, GDR, Cuba), as well as right-wing ones based on the same (Francoist Spain, Pinochet-era Chile, Iran, apartheid South Africa).
smutticus 13y ago
Your definition of 'left' and 'right' in politics is quite simply just wrong. Both left and right can descend into state control just as easily. Fascism, for example, is a far-right ideology. I also don't know why you think Venezuela is less democratic then many other N Hemispheric countries. But having no comparison with which to judge I don't know how corrupt a country needs to be in order to register as 'very, very corrupt' on your radar.
- bosstwizz 13y ago
  relevant: http://www.transparency.org/country#VEN http://www.transparency.org/country#VEN Corruption perceptions index score: 19/100 (100 = least corrupt) World rank: 165/176
- Kurtz79 13y ago
  To his credit, he did not say that all ideologies where heavy government presence is prominent are left-inspired. He said that the word "leftist" implies certain characteristics, among them heavy government presence. I struggle to think of a real-life example where this is not the case.

pekk 13y ago

These are all countries where 'Yankee' is a bad word and 'socialism' is a good one. This isn't subjective, it is amply documented.

znowi 13y ago

"Leftist" is one of more respectable terms that those countries have been called by the western media :)