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When will we stop pretending TIOBE is even remotely relevant. Do we still honestly think that there are four times as many python developers then Javascript dev

by dkhenry 13y ago

When will we stop pretending TIOBE is even remotely relevant. Do we still honestly think that there are four times as many python developers then Javascript developers or twice as many Perl developers as Ruby developers ? This is absolute rubbish

deweller 13y ago
Just because Hacker News is biased toward Javascript and Ruby doesn't mean the rest of the world is.
- shubhamjain 13y ago
  Just forget the bias, how many alternatives are their to PHP in terms of back-end? Many : Python (Django), Ruby ( Rails ) and I think almost every major langauge has some port for Web development. Now what are the alternatives to Javascript: None. Why do you think PHP would be more popular?
  - nbouscal 13y ago
    There are tons of alternatives to JS if you count languages that compile to JS. Probably just as many as there are alternatives to PHP. Also, the fact that there are alternatives to PHP does not mean that they are widely used. We're in an echo chamber here, but in the real world, PHP is still the de facto language of the back end web. The LAMP stack is still the dominant setup. It's unfortunate, but it's reality.
  - martin_ 13y ago
    Rails and Django are frameworks, why are you comparing them to a language? It's hardly apples to apples.
  - venomsnake 13y ago
    If you have socket, concurrency and string capabilities you can create web backend in anything.
mattmanser 13y ago
What do you call a javascript developer? As most people who use javascript aren't going to be developers but merely dabblers and jQuery gluer-togetherers. But on the whole I agree with you, just that there probably aren't that many half decent javascript developers as you think as there's not a massive demand for them (something you'll notice if you ever watch the SO javascript questions, very low quality and some of the high answerers don't really seem to understand it properly either). I've actually been half keeping an eye out for a javascript dev job and tbh 90% of the jobs I've seen when someone asks for a front end 'developer', they're asking for a designer that can use CSS and knows basic jQuery magic. Not a developer at all in my book.
rwj 13y ago
People will stop paying attention to TIOBE when there is a better metric. Most HN readers are probably aware of TIOBE's limitations, but it is better than nothing.
- MetaCosm 13y ago
  TL;DR - TIOBE is crap, bad information is worse than no information. I agree with your first point, people will take any information over no information (for better or worse). I highly doubt most HN readers are aware of the limitations, else they wouldn't put so high a value on it, so I don't concur with your second point. Your final point I vehemently disagree with, bad information is worse than no information. A lie is worse than silence. Misinformation is more harmful that no information. TIOBE is hardly anything to be taken seriously. In 2004, when Google swapped an algorithm, a bunch of TIOBE "rankings" swung massively. Back then they only used Google (the rankings are generated from search engine results, more results == better). Now they use multiple engines, but the list of issues that make it crap persist. * Older languages like Perl, have years of postings and pages to draw from ... even if many of them are wrong with current Perl. * Better documented languages generate less noise in terms of pages * Languages with a higher base level developers (lisp, haskell) tend to generate less pages of noise * The system is very easily gamed by anyone with the motivation (not sure if anyone cares) * Communities that rally around good answers rather than repeat themselves generate less noise Noise == Search Results == Rank
jackbravo 13y ago
Not everything revolves around the web you know. Python and perl are both heavily outside web development, something I'm not sure can be said about ruby or javascript.
- dkhenry 13y ago
  Having been in the position of hiring technical people for the past 10 years I can say with a very high level of confidence either all the perl people have such nice jobs with so much security that almost none of them ever need to apply for a job, Or I can say this is a broken metric ( same thing goes for C - C++ BTW)
  - mindstab 13y ago
    maybe for big programming jobs, what about sysadmins?
    - dkhenry 13y ago
      Sysadmins use as much or more bash then perl. So according to this index there are still a ton of people who use lots of perl and little bash, implying not just sysadmins.

by dkhenry 13y ago

deweller 13y ago

Just because Hacker News is biased toward Javascript and Ruby doesn't mean the rest of the world is.

shubhamjain 13y ago
Just forget the bias, how many alternatives are their to PHP in terms of back-end? Many : Python (Django), Ruby ( Rails ) and I think almost every major langauge has some port for Web development. Now what are the alternatives to Javascript: None. Why do you think PHP would be more popular?
- nbouscal 13y ago
  There are tons of alternatives to JS if you count languages that compile to JS. Probably just as many as there are alternatives to PHP. Also, the fact that there are alternatives to PHP does not mean that they are widely used. We're in an echo chamber here, but in the real world, PHP is still the de facto language of the back end web. The LAMP stack is still the dominant setup. It's unfortunate, but it's reality.
- martin_ 13y ago
  Rails and Django are frameworks, why are you comparing them to a language? It's hardly apples to apples.
- venomsnake 13y ago
  If you have socket, concurrency and string capabilities you can create web backend in anything.

mattmanser 13y ago

What do you call a javascript developer? As most people who use javascript aren't going to be developers but merely dabblers and jQuery gluer-togetherers. But on the whole I agree with you, just that there probably aren't that many half decent javascript developers as you think as there's not a massive demand for them (something you'll notice if you ever watch the SO javascript questions, very low quality and some of the high answerers don't really seem to understand it properly either). I've actually been half keeping an eye out for a javascript dev job and tbh 90% of the jobs I've seen when someone asks for a front end 'developer', they're asking for a designer that can use CSS and knows basic jQuery magic. Not a developer at all in my book.

rwj 13y ago

People will stop paying attention to TIOBE when there is a better metric. Most HN readers are probably aware of TIOBE's limitations, but it is better than nothing.

MetaCosm 13y ago
TL;DR - TIOBE is crap, bad information is worse than no information. I agree with your first point, people will take any information over no information (for better or worse). I highly doubt most HN readers are aware of the limitations, else they wouldn't put so high a value on it, so I don't concur with your second point. Your final point I vehemently disagree with, bad information is worse than no information. A lie is worse than silence. Misinformation is more harmful that no information. TIOBE is hardly anything to be taken seriously. In 2004, when Google swapped an algorithm, a bunch of TIOBE "rankings" swung massively. Back then they only used Google (the rankings are generated from search engine results, more results == better). Now they use multiple engines, but the list of issues that make it crap persist. * Older languages like Perl, have years of postings and pages to draw from ... even if many of them are wrong with current Perl. * Better documented languages generate less noise in terms of pages * Languages with a higher base level developers (lisp, haskell) tend to generate less pages of noise * The system is very easily gamed by anyone with the motivation (not sure if anyone cares) * Communities that rally around good answers rather than repeat themselves generate less noise Noise == Search Results == Rank

jackbravo 13y ago

Not everything revolves around the web you know. Python and perl are both heavily outside web development, something I'm not sure can be said about ruby or javascript.

dkhenry 13y ago
Having been in the position of hiring technical people for the past 10 years I can say with a very high level of confidence either all the perl people have such nice jobs with so much security that almost none of them ever need to apply for a job, Or I can say this is a broken metric ( same thing goes for C - C++ BTW)
- mindstab 13y ago
  maybe for big programming jobs, what about sysadmins?
  - dkhenry 13y ago
    Sysadmins use as much or more bash then perl. So according to this index there are still a ton of people who use lots of perl and little bash, implying not just sysadmins.