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That's an incredibly good way to lock out new newbies. I don't know how many people I know who got into programming through web development. Just because existi

by MrDOS 13y ago

That's an incredibly good way to lock out new newbies. I don't know how many people I know who got into programming through web development. Just because existing web developers don't necessarily need a simple solution doesn't mean new web developers couldn't take advantage of it.

voidlogic 13y ago
Really? I can't imagine anything they might do putting this out of the reach of say a sophomore C-S student or a motivated independent learner.
- nitrogen 13y ago
  A lot of current professionals started out as 11- and 12-year-olds dodging COPPA to host their first HTML web sites, not CS sophomores.
  - voidlogic 13y ago
    >A lot of current professionals started out as 11- and 12-year-olds dodging COPPA to host their first HTML web sites, not CS sophomores. I would put those 11 and 12 year old down under "motivated independent learner" If your concern is the a binary HTTP, too bad, it already here, its called HTTPS. It does seem to be holding anyone back. If your concern is a binary HTML/compiler for it, I don't by that either. I was using a compiler when I was 8 years old and didn't have a problem with it conceptually.
    - jimktrains2 13y ago
      HTTPS is HTTP over a TLS connection, not a binary version of HTTP.
      - voidlogic 13y ago
        Obviously, but hits take very helpful to look at HTTPS over something like wireshark. That was my point.
arh68 13y ago
For what it's worth, I started messing with HTML in elementary school, but had no idea how simple HTTP/1.0 was until I hit the 400 level classes in college. Editing in Notepad was the only way to go back then: even Dreamweaver got too complicated. Likewise, my first foray into JMS/message-queue type stuff was with STOMP, the simple text-oriented message protocol: there was no way I was going to understand the 'open wire protocol' for ActiveMQ. Ain't got time for that! All that said, I think peterwwillis is right: http/X.0, as long as it's well-simplified, is better in binary than it is in text. Ideally, there's a bijection between your text-mode and binary-mode (like a lens), where it's easy to parse (rely on your toolset to do the translation back and forth) and easy to put on the wire. Forth is a good example of how to do it sanely.

by MrDOS 13y ago

voidlogic 13y ago

Really? I can't imagine anything they might do putting this out of the reach of say a sophomore C-S student or a motivated independent learner.

nitrogen 13y ago
A lot of current professionals started out as 11- and 12-year-olds dodging COPPA to host their first HTML web sites, not CS sophomores.
- voidlogic 13y ago
  >A lot of current professionals started out as 11- and 12-year-olds dodging COPPA to host their first HTML web sites, not CS sophomores. I would put those 11 and 12 year old down under "motivated independent learner" If your concern is the a binary HTTP, too bad, it already here, its called HTTPS. It does seem to be holding anyone back. If your concern is a binary HTML/compiler for it, I don't by that either. I was using a compiler when I was 8 years old and didn't have a problem with it conceptually.
  - jimktrains2 13y ago
    HTTPS is HTTP over a TLS connection, not a binary version of HTTP.
    - voidlogic 13y ago
      Obviously, but hits take very helpful to look at HTTPS over something like wireshark. That was my point.

arh68 13y ago

For what it's worth, I started messing with HTML in elementary school, but had no idea how simple HTTP/1.0 was until I hit the 400 level classes in college. Editing in Notepad was the only way to go back then: even Dreamweaver got too complicated. Likewise, my first foray into JMS/message-queue type stuff was with STOMP, the simple text-oriented message protocol: there was no way I was going to understand the 'open wire protocol' for ActiveMQ. Ain't got time for that! All that said, I think peterwwillis is right: http/X.0, as long as it's well-simplified, is better in binary than it is in text. Ideally, there's a bijection between your text-mode and binary-mode (like a lens), where it's easy to parse (rely on your toolset to do the translation back and forth) and easy to put on the wire. Forth is a good example of how to do it sanely.