5 ms·

Archy

76 points by GuiA 13y ago

arocks 13y ago
Looks like a lot of good ideas have been taken from Emacs and applied to the windowing system; which btw is a great idea. Hope it is as scriptable and extensible as well.
- muxxa 13y ago
  A big difference between Emacs and Raskins' design is the concept of modelessness. If you've ever typed META+X in emacs in anticipation of typing a command, and then switched windows or got distracted or clicked the mouse, emacs is left in the 'command mode' and will misinterpret your next input. Raskin coined the term 'pseudo-mode'. The difference between a pseudo-mode and a mode is the difference between the SHIFT key and the CAPS-LOCK key (for entering uppercase letters). The latter frustrates while the former goes unnoticed because it works so well. If you are in any way involved with usability, read The Humane Interface: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Humane_Interface http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Humane_Interface
  - TheZenPsycho 13y ago
    actually he coined to term "Quasi-mode"
fellowniusmonk 13y ago
Interesting. I have been working on something similar in spirit but with a simpler UI that incorporates a feed and a has greater focus on collaborative work. It has the goal of covering 70% use case through community plugins instead of being an alternative OS. Reducing scope also allows you to avoid relying on modifier keys (which I have always found to be a pain point for wide adoption.)
gohrt 13y ago
Interesting. The modern smartphone OS is almost exactly like Archy. Perhaps related to the common Raskin@Apple lineage of Archy and the iPhone.
Uchikoma 13y ago
I've clicked because I tought it was Archie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archie_search_engine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archie_search_engine for which I have fond memories.
- eatitraw 13y ago
  I've thought it was archy as in anarchy, and until I clicked I was wondering why someone would post article about some obscure political term.
- rwmj 13y ago
  Fond memories? Archie was truly horrible.
  - sdfjkl 13y ago
    Archie was no doubt truly horrible compared to every search engine that came after it. However it was at it's time a god-send, as previously there was simply no way to find anything you weren't directly linked to.
    - Uchikoma 13y ago
      Exactly.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
lloeki 13y ago
Interesting how OSX strives to achieve similar points, although not coming from a "from scratch" experience. - persistence + universal undo: Versions and Time Machine - leaping: missing (although OSX strives to support both fn/alt/cmd+stuff and a reduced set of emacs keybindings, it's a far cry from doing it anywhere) - commands: services. Also, the 'bundle' architecture, of which applications are a specific instance of aims to make self contained components that add features to the system. - zoomworld: Exposé/Mission Control/App Exposé (with open/minimized/MRU). Also, Finder inline previews, then QuickShow and finally the document opened in the corresponding app. Again all of this is in a reduced form, and applied to a pre-existing WIMP environment. None of those features existed on OSX 10.0, and it gradually evolved to have them.
ripperdoc 13y ago
Nice, especially the zoom-approach, have anyone seen this being implemented? However, I disagree with the whole idea of typing commands. For power users that's great, but for casual users, it's nearly impossible to know which commands exist, what they are called or what they will do. The menu based interface has the great advantage that it categorizes commands and allows the user to see what can be done, and use deduction to pick the right command. There should be no need to remember any command names or key combinations for light users.
- pmarin 13y ago
  The Active Oberon System (AOS) use the zoom-approach. There are some videos in youtube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pe0ZdzO_urU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pe0ZdzO_urU
- readme 13y ago
  The 'zoom approach' is used in inkscape and adobe illustrator.
- TheZenPsycho 13y ago
  There is no need to remember anything actually. If you've ever used Enso, Ubiquity (both made by Jef's son Aza) or Sublime Text 2, or Google Instant/autocomplete, or indeed Firefox's "Awesome Bar", then that is the kind of experience the humane interface describes.
- TuringTest 13y ago
  Menu and typing commands are not either-or exclusive; you can have both. In a system like Archy there can be menus stored as plain text - given that it's trivial to select text and invoke it as a command. It's just that menus don't require a separate subsystem or component, they're stored in the homogeneous system's data representation (and they can be user-editable, which modern GUIs don't allow - yet). I've known of Archy and The Humane Interface for about ten years, and it's funny how more and more interfaces are converging towards the interaction style defined by it (with some tweaks because of backwards compatibility and-or because some of the ideas in the book have been tested and improved since then).
- 13y ago
aidos 13y ago
For anyone who hasn't read it, Jef Raskin's The Humane Interface is a great book. Makes you really stop and think about how we interact with objects around us - physical and virtual. http://www.amazon.com/The-Humane-Interface-Directions-Interactive/dp/0201379376 http://www.amazon.com/The-Humane-Interface-Directions-Intera...
- specialist 13y ago
  I still find a lot of inspiration from the earlier UI books (ideas), before everything settled down. Lots of crazy, awesome ideas. Now it's just how to books. I've been anticipating the ZUI for ages. eg It's the correct answer for a window manager. It's the only way to maintain continuity, preventing users getting "hyperlost", kinda like what breadcrumbs try to accomplish. Did you see the new flashy zooming Calendar transitions in the WWDC Mavericks demo? It appears to have the right balance between zooming and level of detail (LOD). Me want! FWIW, I did not anticipate the dynamic 2.5D in the forthcoming iOS 7. That's gonna be huge.
phryk 13y ago
Don't take this the wrong way but for an interface expert Raskin doesn't seem to give much consideration to typography. While it might be innovative, I couldn't use that interface simply because of the bad readability…
- sdfjkl 13y ago
  Those are details that can be refined later. The overarching concept is great.
  - hrkristian 13y ago
    I see what you did there.
    - throwit1979 13y ago
      Is this reddit?
  - simonh 13y ago
    Later? He was working on this stuff since the 1970s. You'd think there's be something generally useable out in the wild by now.
- TuringTest 13y ago
  IIRC this is the guy who pushed for graphical, user-configurable types in the original Mac - something that hadn't been done before ever. The software was an alpha release, it's likely that they went with whichever fonts were available in the environment they used.
perlgeek 13y ago
Has anybody used this, and can comment on how well the "type while holding the Alt (or capslock) key" works? I imagine it's a bit hard to type with both hands while holding down a key.
- user24 13y ago
  FUNNY BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM HOLDING SHIFT WITH MY LITTLE FINGER.
  - klez 13y ago
    unless you touch type, in which case you should change hand
- mvaliente2001 13y ago
  I used it. It was a very interesting experience, but a little hard to get used to. The position of alt is not comfortable for the quasi-mode required. CAPS is more accessible, but then you can't use your pinkie. Raskin's idea was to use a special keyboard with two spacial keys, LEAP FORWARD and LEAP BACK near SPACE. It's so sad that the project died. The interface was very promising and I long for that keyboard I never used.
  - TuringTest 13y ago
    Even though the project died, the ideas in it have spread. It's a funny exercise for a trained eye to look for ideas originating in The Humane Interface throughout all kind of modern interfaces. That book has been much more influential than it may seem - all the good interface designers seem to know it or at least follow its principles.
- TuringTest 13y ago
  I've tried it, and it's a pain even with dedicated keys. This is one point of Raskin's design where the rationale is sound, but the solution he found was sub-optimal. Instead of a "pure" quasimode, modern interfaces do incremental searching following the search box style introduced by Firefox, with a persistent dedicated and non-obtrusive search field. I find that this is a superior interaction, and it still can be considered non-modal. The style has spread to notifications too, with browsers showing small rectangles above and below the window instead of an obtrusive modal alert dialog.
mntmn 13y ago
The hardware keys were actually implemented, in the Canon Cat project: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_Cat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_Cat
brini 13y ago
I like that he named Archy after Don Marquis' Archy and Mehitabel, the cockroach and alley cat duo. Archy the cockroach would spend hours throwing his body against the keys of a manual typewriter to convey his poetry about his muse Mehitabel, who in turn would throw herself repeatedly against the harsh world of alley-cat living with irrepressible gaiety. Two paragons of the struggle with interfaces!
eitland 13y ago
No comment on the license yet? I might be dumb but if somebody don't sell commercial licenses why would they restrict the usefulness by adding restrictions on commercial usage? Edit: style. And a possible reason - maybe they have used a non-free library with a non-commercial only clause?

76 points by GuiA 13y ago

Looks like a lot of good ideas have been taken from Emacs and applied to the windowing system; which btw is a great idea. Hope it is as scriptable and extensible as well.

muxxa 13y ago
A big difference between Emacs and Raskins' design is the concept of modelessness. If you've ever typed META+X in emacs in anticipation of typing a command, and then switched windows or got distracted or clicked the mouse, emacs is left in the 'command mode' and will misinterpret your next input. Raskin coined the term 'pseudo-mode'. The difference between a pseudo-mode and a mode is the difference between the SHIFT key and the CAPS-LOCK key (for entering uppercase letters). The latter frustrates while the former goes unnoticed because it works so well. If you are in any way involved with usability, read The Humane Interface: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Humane_Interface http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Humane_Interface
- TheZenPsycho 13y ago
  actually he coined to term "Quasi-mode"

fellowniusmonk 13y ago

Interesting. I have been working on something similar in spirit but with a simpler UI that incorporates a feed and a has greater focus on collaborative work. It has the goal of covering 70% use case through community plugins instead of being an alternative OS. Reducing scope also allows you to avoid relying on modifier keys (which I have always found to be a pain point for wide adoption.)

gohrt 13y ago

Interesting. The modern smartphone OS is almost exactly like Archy. Perhaps related to the common Raskin@Apple lineage of Archy and the iPhone.

Uchikoma 13y ago

I've clicked because I tought it was Archie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archie_search_engine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archie_search_engine for which I have fond memories.

eatitraw 13y ago
I've thought it was archy as in anarchy, and until I clicked I was wondering why someone would post article about some obscure political term.
rwmj 13y ago
Fond memories? Archie was truly horrible.
- sdfjkl 13y ago
  Archie was no doubt truly horrible compared to every search engine that came after it. However it was at it's time a god-send, as previously there was simply no way to find anything you weren't directly linked to.
  - Uchikoma 13y ago
    Exactly.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]

lloeki 13y ago

Interesting how OSX strives to achieve similar points, although not coming from a "from scratch" experience. - persistence + universal undo: Versions and Time Machine - leaping: missing (although OSX strives to support both fn/alt/cmd+stuff and a reduced set of emacs keybindings, it's a far cry from doing it anywhere) - commands: services. Also, the 'bundle' architecture, of which applications are a specific instance of aims to make self contained components that add features to the system. - zoomworld: Exposé/Mission Control/App Exposé (with open/minimized/MRU). Also, Finder inline previews, then QuickShow and finally the document opened in the corresponding app. Again all of this is in a reduced form, and applied to a pre-existing WIMP environment. None of those features existed on OSX 10.0, and it gradually evolved to have them.

ripperdoc 13y ago

Nice, especially the zoom-approach, have anyone seen this being implemented? However, I disagree with the whole idea of typing commands. For power users that's great, but for casual users, it's nearly impossible to know which commands exist, what they are called or what they will do. The menu based interface has the great advantage that it categorizes commands and allows the user to see what can be done, and use deduction to pick the right command. There should be no need to remember any command names or key combinations for light users.

pmarin 13y ago
The Active Oberon System (AOS) use the zoom-approach. There are some videos in youtube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pe0ZdzO_urU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pe0ZdzO_urU
readme 13y ago
The 'zoom approach' is used in inkscape and adobe illustrator.
TheZenPsycho 13y ago
There is no need to remember anything actually. If you've ever used Enso, Ubiquity (both made by Jef's son Aza) or Sublime Text 2, or Google Instant/autocomplete, or indeed Firefox's "Awesome Bar", then that is the kind of experience the humane interface describes.
TuringTest 13y ago
Menu and typing commands are not either-or exclusive; you can have both. In a system like Archy there can be menus stored as plain text - given that it's trivial to select text and invoke it as a command. It's just that menus don't require a separate subsystem or component, they're stored in the homogeneous system's data representation (and they can be user-editable, which modern GUIs don't allow - yet). I've known of Archy and The Humane Interface for about ten years, and it's funny how more and more interfaces are converging towards the interaction style defined by it (with some tweaks because of backwards compatibility and-or because some of the ideas in the book have been tested and improved since then).
13y ago

aidos 13y ago

For anyone who hasn't read it, Jef Raskin's The Humane Interface is a great book. Makes you really stop and think about how we interact with objects around us - physical and virtual. http://www.amazon.com/The-Humane-Interface-Directions-Interactive/dp/0201379376 http://www.amazon.com/The-Humane-Interface-Directions-Intera...

specialist 13y ago
I still find a lot of inspiration from the earlier UI books (ideas), before everything settled down. Lots of crazy, awesome ideas. Now it's just how to books. I've been anticipating the ZUI for ages. eg It's the correct answer for a window manager. It's the only way to maintain continuity, preventing users getting "hyperlost", kinda like what breadcrumbs try to accomplish. Did you see the new flashy zooming Calendar transitions in the WWDC Mavericks demo? It appears to have the right balance between zooming and level of detail (LOD). Me want! FWIW, I did not anticipate the dynamic 2.5D in the forthcoming iOS 7. That's gonna be huge.

phryk 13y ago

Don't take this the wrong way but for an interface expert Raskin doesn't seem to give much consideration to typography. While it might be innovative, I couldn't use that interface simply because of the bad readability…

sdfjkl 13y ago
Those are details that can be refined later. The overarching concept is great.
- hrkristian 13y ago
  I see what you did there.
  - throwit1979 13y ago
    Is this reddit?
- simonh 13y ago
  Later? He was working on this stuff since the 1970s. You'd think there's be something generally useable out in the wild by now.
TuringTest 13y ago
IIRC this is the guy who pushed for graphical, user-configurable types in the original Mac - something that hadn't been done before ever. The software was an alpha release, it's likely that they went with whichever fonts were available in the environment they used.

perlgeek 13y ago

Has anybody used this, and can comment on how well the "type while holding the Alt (or capslock) key" works? I imagine it's a bit hard to type with both hands while holding down a key.

user24 13y ago
FUNNY BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM HOLDING SHIFT WITH MY LITTLE FINGER.
- klez 13y ago
  unless you touch type, in which case you should change hand
mvaliente2001 13y ago
I used it. It was a very interesting experience, but a little hard to get used to. The position of alt is not comfortable for the quasi-mode required. CAPS is more accessible, but then you can't use your pinkie. Raskin's idea was to use a special keyboard with two spacial keys, LEAP FORWARD and LEAP BACK near SPACE. It's so sad that the project died. The interface was very promising and I long for that keyboard I never used.
- TuringTest 13y ago
  Even though the project died, the ideas in it have spread. It's a funny exercise for a trained eye to look for ideas originating in The Humane Interface throughout all kind of modern interfaces. That book has been much more influential than it may seem - all the good interface designers seem to know it or at least follow its principles.
TuringTest 13y ago
I've tried it, and it's a pain even with dedicated keys. This is one point of Raskin's design where the rationale is sound, but the solution he found was sub-optimal. Instead of a "pure" quasimode, modern interfaces do incremental searching following the search box style introduced by Firefox, with a persistent dedicated and non-obtrusive search field. I find that this is a superior interaction, and it still can be considered non-modal. The style has spread to notifications too, with browsers showing small rectangles above and below the window instead of an obtrusive modal alert dialog.

mntmn 13y ago

The hardware keys were actually implemented, in the Canon Cat project: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_Cat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_Cat

brini 13y ago

I like that he named Archy after Don Marquis' Archy and Mehitabel, the cockroach and alley cat duo. Archy the cockroach would spend hours throwing his body against the keys of a manual typewriter to convey his poetry about his muse Mehitabel, who in turn would throw herself repeatedly against the harsh world of alley-cat living with irrepressible gaiety. Two paragons of the struggle with interfaces!

eitland 13y ago

No comment on the license yet? I might be dumb but if somebody don't sell commercial licenses why would they restrict the usefulness by adding restrictions on commercial usage? Edit: style. And a possible reason - maybe they have used a non-free library with a non-commercial only clause?